Re: Moves : Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:32 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

I guess my question on this is how has Marshall comfortably out performed him? I've seen Burgess and Marshall make the same kind of mistakes in games, but only Burgess seems to get pulled up for them.

I fully expect to be shot down by asking that, as most people will just say "because he has", or "effort" i.e all the things that are subjective.

I’m watching a different sport if Marshall hasn’t out performed Burgess consistently over these past couple of seasons. He’s beat him for workrate, energy, carries from his own end, threat with the ball and so on. All subjective I guess unless it can be backed with cold hard facts but the fact Marshall has been selected in front of him whenever both have been available speaks volumes. This club is built on a culture of leaving nothing out on the field. I feel Burgess has fallen below that at times but I never feel Marshall does.

Most naturally talented-Burgess

Better player-Marshall

IMO

Re: Moves : Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:56 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I’m watching a different sport if Marshall hasn’t out performed Burgess consistently over these past couple of seasons. He’s beat him for workrate, energy, carries from his own end, threat with the ball and so on. All subjective I guess unless it can be backed with cold hard facts but the fact Marshall has been selected in front of him whenever both have been available speaks volumes. This club is built on a culture of leaving nothing out on the field. I feel Burgess has fallen below that at times but I never feel Marshall does.

Most naturally talented-Burgess

Better player-Marshall

IMO

It's a hard one to quantify and articulate, especially without turning it into a Marshall bashing post (something I don't want to do).

A lot of people say that Marshall was the inform winger prior to his injury & I'd probably say that's fair. I'd also say that Burgess, over the last 10 weeks or so, has been at the same level Marshall was. Why aren't we saying Burgess was the inform winger in the comp? Who was better than him?

Likewise there's posts about no desire, yet he played the GF with a broken jaw (a fact that's hardly been mentioned).

Burgess might not "puff out" his cheeks when he runs it in, that doesn't make him any less ineffective imo. He might not chip it over and go 50 metres, but more often than not he'll have kept his opposite man quiet all night.

It can't just be me that sees the hoops Burgess has to jump through.

Re: Moves : Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:41 pm  

[quote="It can't just be me that sees the hoops Burgess has to jump through.[/quote]

Quite simple why he consistently gets a rough ride...narrow minded fans who once he’d been to the NRL and been a “failure” thought we should’ve never had him back. Saw the same with Sam, even though once fit he was comfortably the most influential player in the team, if not league, and continues to be the same for Catalans. I’m sure we’ll see the same again next season if Bateman isn’t doing 200m plus a game and 60 tackles.

Re: Moves : Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:18 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

It's a hard one to quantify and articulate, especially without turning it into a Marshall bashing post (something I don't want to do).

A lot of people say that Marshall was the inform winger prior to his injury & I'd probably say that's fair. I'd also say that Burgess, over the last 10 weeks or so, has been at the same level Marshall was. Why aren't we saying Burgess was the inform winger in the comp? Who was better than him?

Likewise there's posts about no desire, yet he played the GF with a broken jaw (a fact that's hardly been mentioned).

Burgess might not "puff out" his cheeks when he runs it in, that doesn't make him any less ineffective imo. He might not chip it over and go 50 metres, but more often than not he'll have kept his opposite man quiet all night.

It can't just be me that sees the hoops Burgess has to jump through.

Burgess would’ve run through brick walls these last couple of months but if he’d do that now, then why not before? If he has so much more to give, as he’s shown in these last couple of months, why didn’t he show it earlier? He’s a brilliant player, unbelievably talented but I can’t help but feel the last two months of his Wigan career has proven that he’s not quite thrown everything in to it in these last couple of seasons (in the main). I think there were some confidence issues as well but there’s been times when he’s looked like he’s going through the motions.

Marshall IMO was the leagues best winger pre lockdown. I agree it’s not about bigging one up and bagging the other, that happened too often with Marshall and Davies as well but Marshall produced displays in that spell Burgess simply hasn’t in these past few seasons. I hear talk of his defence but aside from a bad 5 mins against Wakey in the first game post lockdown, he’s been solid and he’s fine under the high and low ball nowadays.

I wish we could’ve kept Burgess by the way but I can see why he was allowed to look elsewhere a few months back.

Re: Moves : Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:50 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Burgess would’ve run through brick walls these last couple of months but if he’d do that now, then why not before? If he has so much more to give, as he’s shown in these last couple of months, why didn’t he show it earlier? He’s a brilliant player, unbelievably talented but I can’t help but feel the last two months of his Wigan career has proven that he’s not quite thrown everything in to it in these last couple of seasons (in the main). I think there were some confidence issues as well but there’s been times when he’s looked like he’s going through the motions.

Marshall IMO was the leagues best winger pre lockdown. I agree it’s not about bigging one up and bagging the other, that happened too often with Marshall and Davies as well but Marshall produced displays in that spell Burgess simply hasn’t in these past few seasons. I hear talk of his defence but aside from a bad 5 mins against Wakey in the first game post lockdown, he’s been solid and he’s fine under the high and low ball nowadays.

I wish we could’ve kept Burgess by the way but I can see why he was allowed to look elsewhere a few months back.

I'm not for a second saying that Burgess couldn't have been better, because he obviously had more in him. I guess it's slightly off topic, or away from my OP, but it's almost criminal the lengths some players have to go to get recognised.

The comparison a couple of posts ago about Sam is a good one actually. It's all hypothetical, but if Sam was playing for us last week we'd have won imo. In Sam's last game for us he sets Manfredi up with a peach of a pass. Roll the clock back to last week and a couple of times French was in the same spot, but the pass doesn't quite hit the man. Those are the small differences and (not you btw), but some of our fans only see the flashy stuff and don't reward small details that are just as important. Or worse still block it out because of the player that did it (Burgess's jaw or Sam's passing).

Another example is Faz Vs Isa. Now this isn't a pop at Isa, but I've seen loads of people on social media fawning over him with sfuff like "I love Isa", "Isa is my favourite player", "Watch Isa set the tone" and I can't help but think some of it is 'puffing your cheeks out' type posturing. Yeah Isa has been great, but Faz does all of that + more. Faz should be regarded as a legend, but because he's not involved in the rough and tumble, or flying in from a kick he doesn't get that praise.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - for some of our fans if you aren't scoring a wow of a try, running into a tackle at 100 miles an hour or offering your unwavering long term loyalty to the badge then you aren't recognised as well as others.

Re: Moves : Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:59 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

I'm not for a second saying that Burgess couldn't have been better, because he obviously had more in him. I guess it's slightly off topic, or away from my OP, but it's almost criminal the lengths some players have to go to get recognised.

The comparison a couple of posts ago about Sam is a good one actually. It's all hypothetical, but if Sam was playing for us last week we'd have won imo. In Sam's last game for us he sets Manfredi up with a peach of a pass. Roll the clock back to last week and a couple of times French was in the same spot, but the pass doesn't quite hit the man. Those are the small differences and (not you btw), but some of our fans only see the flashy stuff and don't reward small details that are just as important. Or worse still block it out because of the player that did it (Burgess's jaw or Sam's passing).

Another example is Faz Vs Isa. Now this isn't a pop at Isa, but I've seen loads of people on social media fawning over him with sfuff like "I love Isa", "Isa is my favourite player", "Watch Isa set the tone" and I can't help but think some of it is 'puffing your cheeks out' type posturing. Yeah Isa has been great, but Faz does all of that + more. Faz should be regarded as a legend, but because he's not involved in the rough and tumble, or flying in from a kick he doesn't get that praise.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - for some of our fans if you aren't scoring a wow of a try, running into a tackle at 100 miles an hour or offering your unwavering long term loyalty to the badge then you aren't recognised as well as others.

I agree with the vast majority of that. I think ultimately I just think Burgess has let himself down a little bit in this second spell. I get frustrated because I rate him so highly. This sounds terribly disrespectful to Salford but he shouldn’t be signing for a club like that. He is coming in to what should be the prime of his career and I think he has the talent to be a top level winger at a club winning trophies, an international winger and if he got his head down, an NRL winger again and a very good one at that. This isn’t a Matty Russell, Lewis Tierney or even Tom Davies we’re talking about. He’s in a different league from an ability point of view.

Re: Moves : Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:04 pm  

Commenting that fans don't reward the small details, and then criticising Willie Isa.........

Re: Moves : Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:09 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

Commenting that fans don't reward the small details, and then criticising Willie Isa.........

You're obviously fishing for a bite, but show me the criticism in that post? I think I even said he's been great at one point?

Re: Moves : Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:15 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

You're obviously fishing for a bite, but show me the criticism in that post? I think I even said he's been great at one point?

Well I know from previous posts you don't like him and it's an obvious reference to that.

Isa is almost the definition of "does the small things" as is Sam Powell, who to agree with your statement is only starting to get recognition for that because he's added a few tries to his armoury. He doesn't do 50 runs from dummy half like Daryl Clark though.

Re: Moves : Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:27 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

Well I know from previous posts you don't like him and it's an obvious reference to that.

Isa is almost the definition of "does the small things" as is Sam Powell, who to agree with your statement is only starting to get recognition for that because he's added a few tries to his armoury. He doesn't do 50 runs from dummy half like Daryl Clark though.

Slightly OTT there, I just think he's a decent squad player and we've argued that before. I don't not like the guy & have even suggested that the club should keep him around when he hangs up his boots

I will say that Isa does occasionally go for the big hit. Think back to KO last week, he steams in and misses his shot. I'm not criticising him for that btw, it's obvious what he's trying to do with that play - it's just some fans will rate that miss higher than the actual action of making the tackle.