Re: Rumours and signings 2010 v1 : Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:29 pm  

MadDogg wrote:

Probably makes a move to Saints a little more likely for Shenton which wouldn't be anywhere near the disaster some seem to make it out to be. A good player with potential to get better but the sad reality is that making the England 3/4 line does not equal 'world class'. Right now it simply means the best of an average bunch.

I'm convinced we could do better in the future than Shenton with either a recruit from overseas or the development of Thornley or Marsh. I'd also be interested to see how a high in confidence Daryl Goulding would go if he was moved inside from the wing.

#

Regardless of people’s opinions of Shenton can we please dispel this myth of signing 'world class' players?

I’d personally say there is only one world class player in SL and that’s Graham. Some people may want to add a few more names like Morley & Buderus etc but I doubt we’d realistically get over a handful in the end.

I’m not talking about the laughable use of the term ‘world class’ banded around by Eddie and Stevo for players like KFC, Wellens, Harris, Senior or Gleeson btw. I’m talking about true world class talent like Inglis, Cameron Smith, Lockyer, SBW, Slater etc.

We won’t be signing any backs on their level that’s for sure.

What we should be looking at is top SL class. Top SL class includes players like Sinfied, Peacock, Lockers, Richards, Senior, Gleeson, King, Tomkins, Eastmond, Webb etc. They are the level of players we can realistically look at and most importantly they are the types of players that win you trophies.

Shenton might not be on the class of a Inglis or Gasnier but he should, in a season or two, be at the level of Keith Senior or Gleeson. Now I don’t see many Leeds fans complaining that Senior isn’t world class and the simple reason for that is they don’t need him to be. Senior is SL class, not world class, but it’s hardly stopped Leeds winning plenty of silverware over the last few seasons has it. I’d like to think that Shenton would have a similar impact with us over the next decade.

That may seem like a defeatist way of looking at our recruitment but sadly world class players come over here very rarely. In the last 10 years we’ve only signed maybe 4 or 5 in Trent, Lam, Furner and Renouf and out of them only Trent was under the age of 30. Now if someone would have given me the option of Renouf for 2 years or Gleeson for 10 I know regardless of the gulf in class there I wouldn’t be choosing Renouf.

Re: Rumours and signings 2010 v1 : Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:31 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

World class..maybe not but he is a very good player and we shouldn't forget his form from last season and the start of this season because of his recent time out of the side. I'd be more then happy to offer him a 2 or 3 year deal because i'm a huge fan. He's a super fullback but also brings a utility value.

If somebody said to me that next season we can only keep one of Phelps, Carmont, Bailey and Feka it would be Phelps by quite a distance.

Definitely, although obviously Wigan fans will be sad to see Feka leave due to the entertainment value he's provided over the years.

inside_man wrote:

I'm still not sure Ainscough will make it here

Ainscough will not make it at Wigan in my opinion.

Re: Rumours and signings 2010 v1 : Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:32 pm  

thepriestman85 wrote:

#

Regardless of people’s opinions of Shenton can we please dispel this myth of signing 'world class' players?

I’d personally say there is only one world class player in SL and that’s Graham. Some people may want to add a few more names like Morley & Buderus etc but I doubt we’d realistically get over a handful in the end.

I’m not talking about the laughable use of the term ‘world class’ banded around by Eddie and Stevo for players like KFC, Wellens, Harris, Senior or Gleeson btw. I’m talking about true world class talent like Inglis, Cameron Smith, Lockyer, SBW, Slater etc.

We won’t be signing any backs on their level that’s for sure.

What we should be looking at is top SL class. Top SL class includes players like Sinfied, Peacock, Lockers, Richards, Senior, Gleeson, King, Tomkins, Eastmond, Webb etc. They are the level of players we can realistically look at and most importantly they are the types of players that win you trophies.

Shenton might not be on the class of a Inglis or Gasnier but he should, in a season or two, be at the level of Keith Senior or Gleeson. Now I don’t see many Leeds fans complaining that Senior isn’t world class and the simple reason for that is they don’t need him to be. Senior is SL class, not world class, but it’s hardly stopped Leeds winning plenty of silverware over the last few seasons has it. I’d like to think that Shenton would have a similar impact with us over the next decade.

That may seem like a defeatist way of looking at our recruitment but sadly world class players come over here very rarely. In the last 10 years we’ve only signed maybe 4 or 5 in Trent, Lam, Furner and Renouf and out of them only Trent was under the age of 30. Now if someone would have given me the option of Renouf for 2 years or Gleeson for 10 I know regardless of the gulf in class there I wouldn’t be choosing Renouf.

Surely the cap leads to the idea that your world class players should just be the overseas players then. Get all the british players around to a very good standard, some of which will hopefully have the potential to become world class, and use the quota to add that extra special player.

Re: Rumours and signings 2010 v1 : Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:37 pm  

thepriestman85 wrote:

#

Regardless of people’s opinions of Shenton can we please dispel this myth of signing 'world class' players?

I’d personally say there is only one world class player in SL and that’s Graham. Some people may want to add a few more names like Morley & Buderus etc but I doubt we’d realistically get over a handful in the end.

I’m not talking about the laughable use of the term ‘world class’ banded around by Eddie and Stevo for players like KFC, Wellens, Harris, Senior or Gleeson btw. I’m talking about true world class talent like Inglis, Cameron Smith, Lockyer, SBW, Slater etc.

We won’t be signing any backs on their level that’s for sure.

What we should be looking at is top SL class. Top SL class includes players like Sinfied, Peacock, Lockers, Richards, Senior, Gleeson, King, Tomkins, Eastmond, Webb etc. They are the level of players we can realistically look at and most importantly they are the types of players that win you trophies.

Shenton might not be on the class of a Inglis or Gasnier but he should, in a season or two, be at the level of Keith Senior or Gleeson. Now I don’t see many Leeds fans complaining that Senior isn’t world class and the simple reason for that is they don’t need him to be. Senior is SL class, not world class, but it’s hardly stopped Leeds winning plenty of silverware over the last few seasons has it. I’d like to think that Shenton would have a similar impact with us over the next decade.

That may seem like a defeatist way of looking at our recruitment but sadly world class players come over here very rarely. In the last 10 years we’ve only signed maybe 4 or 5 in Trent, Lam, Furner and Renouf and out of them only Trent was under the age of 30. Now if someone would have given me the option of Renouf for 2 years or Gleeson for 10 I know regardless of the gulf in class there I wouldn’t be choosing Renouf.

Good post.

We sometimes have to look at long term options in the hope that not only can we do well in the short term but also we'll be covered in the long term and have a squad capable of driving the club forward. I think we could sign somebody like Shenton and get more out of him and thats fantastic to say because for years we've been taking players careers backwards. I actually think in the short term that Carmont is a slightly better player then Shenton but he's getting no younger and if somebody said we could sign Shenton for 4 years or keep Carmont for the one i'd snap up Shenton without hesitation.

I also wouldn't be worried about how players like Marsh or Thornley will find a spot in the team either. If they're good enough they will find a way in because Maguire is picking the side on merit. We have guys like Gleeson and Roberts who aren't spring chickens so opportunities will naturally come up in the long run.

We simply can't leave ourselves open to total collapse like we did in the past when a bunch of experienced heads all left at the same time. We need to cover all our bases.

Re: Rumours and signings 2010 v1 : Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:39 pm  

inside_man wrote:

Surely the cap leads to the idea that your world class players should just be the overseas players then. Get all the british players around to a very good standard, some of which will hopefully have the potential to become world class, and use the quota to add that extra special player.

Probably but again i'd say true world class players are few and far between from Aus.

If your looking at players like Orford, Tronc, Eastwood, Webb or Kearney who although are all fantastic players it can be argued that guys like Long, Coley, Carvel, Lee Smith or Tomkins can do just of a good of a job without the risk them getting home sick.

The true worl class talent which keeps Aus on the top of the pile, the guys like Inglis, Smith and Lockyer or Fitler, Johns, Petro and Webcke in seasons gone by don’t tend to venture over here for what ever reason.

There is little point in signing an overseas player just for the sake of it

Re: Rumours and signings 2010 v1 : Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:41 pm  

thepriestman85 wrote:

#

Regardless of people’s opinions of Shenton can we please dispel this myth of signing 'world class' players?

I’d personally say there is only one world class player in SL and that’s Graham. Some people may want to add a few more names like Morley & Buderus etc but I doubt we’d realistically get over a handful in the end.

I’m not talking about the laughable use of the term ‘world class’ banded around by Eddie and Stevo for players like KFC, Wellens, Harris, Senior or Gleeson btw. I’m talking about true world class talent like Inglis, Cameron Smith, Lockyer, SBW, Slater etc.

We won’t be signing any backs on their level that’s for sure.

What we should be looking at is top SL class. Top SL class includes players like Sinfied, Peacock, Lockers, Richards, Senior, Gleeson, King, Tomkins, Eastmond, Webb etc. They are the level of players we can realistically look at and most importantly they are the types of players that win you trophies.

Shenton might not be on the class of a Inglis or Gasnier but he should, in a season or two, be at the level of Keith Senior or Gleeson. Now I don’t see many Leeds fans complaining that Senior isn’t world class and the simple reason for that is they don’t need him to be. Senior is SL class, not world class, but it’s hardly stopped Leeds winning plenty of silverware over the last few seasons has it. I’d like to think that Shenton would have a similar impact with us over the next decade.

That may seem like a defeatist way of looking at our recruitment but sadly world class players come over here very rarely. In the last 10 years we’ve only signed maybe 4 or 5 in Trent, Lam, Furner and Renouf and out of them only Trent was under the age of 30. Now if someone would have given me the option of Renouf for 2 years or Gleeson for 10 I know regardless of the gulf in class there I wouldn’t be choosing Renouf.

I completely agree with your post, I do. Looking at the real cream of the world's crop is in all probablity not realistic or necessary for Super League clubs. Signing players who we believe can make a huge impact in Super League should be what we are after.

The arguement of what defines 'world class' depends on interpretation I suppose. The top Australians you mention are the top players in the world, never in a million years would we get one of those in their prime. But you could argue that players like Richards and King are 'world class' in the sense that they wouldn't look out of place in any team in the NRL and on their day would make an impact. It depends on interpretation.

In respect of Shenton, I'd have no problem with us signing him. I'd probably be reasonably pleased. But there's no way I'd be gutted if he signed with St Helens given what we have in our youth systems and potential opportunities for better NRL centres in 2011 when Carmont leaves. And I strongly believe we could get better than Shenton whether you would define such players as 'world class' or not.

Re: Rumours and signings 2010 v1 : Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:43 pm  

inside_man wrote:

Surely the cap leads to the idea that your world class players should just be the overseas players then. Get all the british players around to a very good standard, some of which will hopefully have the potential to become world class, and use the quota to add that extra special player.

What world class overseas players could we possibly bring in?

They are very very hard to get hold of and imo we stand a better chance of developing our own then we do of signing genuine ready made superstars.

If we keep adding very good players to the raft of very good players we've got already all being coached by a fantastic coaching set up we have every chance of taking a few of these players on a level or 2. We have a couple of players imo who's game can improve even further to a standard that will be close to if not 'world class'.

Re: Rumours and signings 2010 v1 : Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:07 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

What world class overseas players could we possibly bring in?

They are very very hard to get hold of and imo we stand a better chance of developing our own then we do of signing genuine ready made superstars.

If we keep adding very good players to the raft of very good players we've got already all being coached by a fantastic coaching set up we have every chance of taking a few of these players on a level or 2. We have a couple of players imo who's game can improve even further to a standard that will be close to if not 'world class'.

I fully agree mate.

Producing your own players is never going to be enough.

You can buy the quick fix, the good Aussie coming to the end of his career like a Renouf or you can go a different way and find the ‘rough diamond’ like Saints did with Gleeson, Long or Sculthorpe. Who would have thought Sculthorpe would have been as good as he turned out to be? You have to applaud Saints vision in seeing a player with talent and having the faith in their coaches ability to develop it.

At Wigan it seems we’ve got one of the best coaches for developing talent so I’d love to see how he’d develop a few ‘rough diamond’ signings.

Also as a side note it maybe useful to keep in mind of the circumstances Shenton is currently playing in. He’s been in a poorish Cas side since he broke through. He’s had little support in the ways Sam or Eastmond have and he’s also had the same coach for the majority of his first team career. Although we aren’t blessed with great centres in England he’s still shown enough talent to shine through. That’s the type of potential we need to be tapping into the player who isn’t anywhere near playing at his full potential but is still standing out.

Re: Rumours and signings 2010 v1 : Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:12 pm  

Thinking out of the box for centres Chambers and Gasnier are out of contract. Chambers is rumoured to be unhappy in union as is Gasnier who is certain to return to the NRL. Chambers has worked with MM knows what he is all about and vice versa and in my opinion would easily be the best centre in SL.

While I do not expect us to sign current Australian Test players but lads just off the top in my opinion are realistic. I would give my right nut to see a player like Jennings in the cherry and white as a long term replacement for Carmont, looking beyond the next season.

Re: Rumours and signings 2010 v1 : Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:17 am  

heard Shenton has signed for Saints.