Re: rl : Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:01 pm  

thepriestman85 wrote:

We need someone whose a talent but not that old say 26-27 ish so we can get some continuity going.

Johnathan Thurston (I think he's 26).

Swap for Smith, I am sure the Cowboys would go for it.

Re: rl : Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:13 pm  

thepriestman85 wrote:

Like Trent did last season? And some people think we aren't missing him at all

Seriously tho i hope if i keep mentioning him IL might get of his booty, dip into his pockets and get us Dobson. He'll do everything that you mentioned about controlling the game, getting the right people hitting the ball at the right time and he'll put them under pressure with and excellent kicking game.

We have to make sure that we don’t get anyone 2 old in the pack cause if they are signed on a two year deal we could potentially lose both Fielden, new signing and then Feka in the space of three seasons?

We need someone whose a talent but not that old say 26-27 ish so we can get some continuity going.

Feka has only just turned 27 so he should be good for at least another 4 seasons

If Fielden shows some decent form I believe we could re-sign him for another 1/2 years once his current deal is up at the end of 2010

So I don't think the age is too much of an issue. We have Prescott and O'Carroll coming along really well. I think Prescott is going to be the ideal starting prop and I think he deserves a run out against Salford on Friday. I think O'Carroll will be the ideal prop to bring off the bench as well and His world cup experience has definitely helped him a lot. I don't think they will both be ready to play every week of super league next season so I think another starting prop to help Fielden is important. Andy Lynch would be a very good signing. Luke Bailey would be perfect but I prefer to have English players unless buying an import is the only option.

: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:15 pm  

Age wise the squad is pretty well balanced in that we only have Coley, Carmont and Fielden around the 30 mark and I would expect Coley to leave at the end of the season, although IMO he has played o.k for the last two weeks.

We still need to recruit a big rough prop, and at least one centre.
Wigan will need to decide what happens with McIlorum, Riddell, Sam and Tommy.

Do we sign a half back and move Tommy to 9, if so what happens to McIlorum
I do like Dobson but his defence is on a par with Tim Smiths, so would a top class 6 be a better option and move Sam to 7?

I'm sure Wigan are looking at all the options.

: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:23 pm  

I've posted this on the other Warriors site I might as well post it here. It basically stems from some of the theorys past on here about our recruitment and a greater focus on youth developments and UK players offering more stabililty etc. So some posts may have been quoted.

But here is goes!

For a start I think we need to lay down a platform for years to come in terms of the core of our side. Leeds have done it with McGuire Burrow and Sinfield & Saints have done it with Pryce Long and Cunningham.

The spine of our side if you like is our homegrown players/British players. The Aussies/overseas players will just complement the squad for three years in positions that we cannot fill either from our academy or with a British player that will not take us over the cap. Leeds have the perfect blend at the moment. With the vast majority homegrown/British players and with a few overseas players to complement the first team squad - Lautiti,Donald,Webb,Buderus. What this achieves is stability throughout your squad and they begin to gel. We weren't beaten by any individual player on Friday. There was no stand out Leeds player. It was a team effort and that team has remained consistent for several years. Overseas players can be stable to a side however most aren't. Look at Trent Barrett wishing to leave after the second year,Scott Logan after the first etc. It is no coincidence that our longest serving players at the club are both Wigan lads Gareth Hock and Sean O'loughlin - does this not tell you something?

We need to focus more on youth development allowing players from the lower ranks the opportunity to progress and take the chance to play for the 1st team.

Use the CAP to upgrade some current players contracts to award good play. Like Joel Tomkins, Sam Tomkins and Sean Ainscough. Should they continue to play well and adapt the right professional attitude. It will create a better ethos if younger players see better wages going to players who are playing well and being professional, lads who were also once part of the academy/youth system.This will create a better feel around the club rather than younger players seeing the money going to overseas Aussies like Cameron Phelps. We have some of the best crop of youngsters coming through at Wigan at the moment for more than a decade. They need to be given the opportunity and the chance to develop and establish themselves as first team players. We've had Sean O'loughlin and Gareth Hock since 2002. This creates stability in the side.

In rugby league your most key positions are your fullback, Stand off, Scrum Half, Hooker and Loose forward.

Apart from Sean O'loughlin we have never had any stability in any of those positions since 2002-2003-2004.

We've had Orr/Moran, Orr/Dobson, Barrett/Tommy, Tommy/Tim and now possibly Sam/Tommy. Compared to how Leeds have had McGuire/Burrow & Saints have had Pryce/Long for years now and I bet both players know each others games inside out. Do you think Sam and Tommy have the same cohesion? It's an issue that needs addressing because if we keep chopping and changing our halfbacks each season we will win nothing.

Mark Riddell is here for three years now and it will be essential that we keep a steady halfback combination because hookers need to have a good understanding of the game & an even greater understanding of the players around them. Mark Riddell is not making excuses when he keeps mentioning the new halfback combination he has to adapt to and vice versa.

Wigan lack direction and lack cohesion in attack. It has been really evident this season. We need to build a long lasting partnership with two halfbacks that know each other inside out and can lead a team around the park.

It is evident that both Leeds and Saints have UK halfbacks. They are players who want to play in this country and want to play here for their careers. Australians tend to only want to play here for 2 seasons maybe even three. I.e. Tim Smith, Greg Bird, Todd Carney.

The only exception to this has been Thomas Leuluai and Michael Dobson. Who would you rather have? Dobson has now got experience, is at a good age and seems very committed to rugby league in super league. He would be ideal for when his contract runs out in 2010 to partner Sam Tomkins. We should move heaven and earth for him.

Aside from Dobson you have to look at this country. Who is there available? Richie Myler? Danny Brough?. You can see why we look to the overseas for halfbacks.

Pat Richards should be our fullback until his contract runs out in 2011. He has all the right attributes to be a fullback. He is quick, he can catch a high ball, has got good positioning and is a good tackler which is essential as he is the last line of defense. He can also fit into the attacking line well and makes runs in the attack in anticipation of an offload from Gareth Hock or Feka Paleaasina. The more exciting thing with Pat is if he is kept at fullback he will only improve. The lad has said himself he prefers to be played at fullback. He is also a good goalkicker he is essential to the side.

Sam Tomkins under the right development could be our first choice stand off for the next 10 years. He is local lad who wants to play for Wigan. He has come through the ranks along with many but the difference is Sam Tomkins has got more potential than most and under the right guidance and leadership he will fulfill this.

Scrum half I will not mince my words I would love Michael Dobson. Myler I don't think has the potential and is unproven in super league. Danny Brough is a good kicker but is easily closed down and can go missing. There are no realistic British alternatives for stability but Dobson is an exception to this being Australian. He seems keen to play in super league and I could see him establishing himself here for the rest of his career a bit like Robbie Paul. Dobson does the basics well and does other stuff on top of that which wins you games. He’d be the perfect foil for Tomkins and again we’d achieve continuity in a pivotal position for a number of seasons. It’s a shame that he’s off contract at the end of next season and not this one meaning we’d have to find a alternative for just next season. But we should be moving heaven and earth for players like him rather than Darren Lockyer and Matt Orford. I like Leuluai but he is far more suited to 9.

I still believe that we need to recruit a prop forward for next season. Having Fielden Feka O'carroll and Prescott is good in theory but what happens should one get injured? O'carroll and Prescott however much potential they might have they are not mature prop forwards and are still very inexperienced. Could they handle super league week in week out in the first team?. Maybe this season will give us a good idea. But I think we need a bit more "beef" up front and we need to look to recruit an experienced professional who can help develop Prescott and O'carroll rather than have a negative affect and hold them back. I think Luke Bailey would be a good example. At only 28 he still has a lot to offer and has plenty of experience in the NRL. If he was signed on a three year contract he would help offer advice/tips to aid both O'carroll and Prescott's development while offering us some strength in depth and keep everyone on their toes having 5 props for next season.Then when Fielden comes off contract in 2010 we can just have Feka Bailey Prescott and O'carroll - as Prescott and O'carroll will have progressed from that year Bailey was here. Also with Fielden coming off contract we have a lot more room on the cap to offer sufficient wages to O'carroll and Prescott and reward them for their progress.

I know signing Luke Bailey may conflict with my earlier theory about opting for UK players above NRL players but there is nothing wrong with signing Australian/overseas players as long as they can bring you something that you can't fill with an academy player or on an affordable priced UK player. They also should bring something extra to the side. Community work, help bring the young lads along etc. But back to the point I was trying to make. The only UK player (who is off contract) that I would consider signing is Louie McCarthy Scarsbrook. Granted the lad does not have the experience that Luke Bailey would offer but the lad has got immense potential & it's about spotting players like this before they are snapped up. E.g. Joe Westerman and Sam Burgess. LMS is something special, he is powerful, strong, elusive runner who has a real enthusiasm for the game and lifts his team mates. He is pivitol for the Harlequins side and would be a great signing for Wigan. He will be a future regular England international and could offer us again this sustained stability for 4/5 years that not many overseas players can. With Prescott, O'carroll LMS and Feka I would be very happy with that set of forwards for the future years to come. All could be pinned down till 2011.

Overseas players is a big issue now within our game and I would look at the top 2 sides in the league and their overseas recruitment and for us to look to follow their example.

Leeds Rhinos

Brent Webb
Scott Donald
Kylie Leuluai
Danny Buderus
Ali Lauititi

All five of them are quality overseas signings. There is not a better fullback in super league than Brent Webb. Danny Buderus is one of the best hookers in the world and his experience will be invaluable, plus he will be a great mentor to the younger lads at the club a bit like Scott Donald. Ali Lauititi offers something no-one in super league can. You can attempt to tackle him but because of his size you can't stop his offload. He is a fantastic player for them. Kylie Leuluai offers a lot of beef upfront. He isn't a spectacular signing and will not be representing his country at international level but he compliments the team well and isn't holding anyone back.

St.helens
Matt Gidley
Francis Meli
Jason Cayless
Chris Flannery

I wont repeat myself but the same applies for Saints.

Now at Wigan the only overseas players who have a desire to play in the super league and will stay here for a considerable length of time are:

Pat Richards
Feka Paleaasina
Mark Riddell
Amos Roberts

We should be looking to get rid of:

Tim Smith - because he doesn't have the desire to stay in the super league has not complimented the squad in fact I would say has disrupted the side. We have a bright prospect in Sam Tomkins and our focus for the next few years should be on him. We don't need to sign a stand off. Tim Smith was never going to offer us consistency in that position as he had the desire to go back to the NRL. Your stand off should not be wanting this. I refer back to McGuire/Burrow & Pryce/Long.

Cameron Phelps - would stay in super league but only because no-one in the NRL would take him. He is a waste of an overseas spot because what we have with Phelps we have in our academy. His presence could give off a negative vibe to the younger players. We have signed a reserve NRL grader as one of our overseas players instead of using a lad from our academy - Darrell Goulding. What we have with Phelps we have in our academy. He doesn't compliment the squad he disrupts it. Imagine Saints or Leeds signing him?

George Carmont - well he will 30/31 next season and so is coming to the end of his career. He was a stop gap signing originally (something we should never do again) and although he was very good in his first season at Wigan we should be looking to use the talent we have in the squad - Karl Pryce, Darrell Goulding or looking in this country. Admittedly there is not much to talk about except Martin Gleeson who is being targeted by Aussie clubs but in truth Warrington and Saints have had the best years out of him. A lot of players are coming out of contract at the end of the season and I would release George as well and look to buy that special Australian player who will compliment the squad and will offer something no British player/academy player could.

Phil Bailey - Has not been good enough. We are blessed with second row forwards all from our academy - Gareth Hock, Joel Tomkins , Harrison Hansen. With Lee Mossop and Liam Farrell looking to make the step up. At the moment Bailey is holding back the younger lads. He offers nothing in attack and is only solid in defense when players run straight at him , if you use a bit of pace or run on the angle he is exposed. As was evident against Leeds.

Thomas Leuluai - this will take the most explaining because Tommy has the desire to stay in super league so will offer us consistency in the halfbacks. BUT my issue with Thomas Leuluai is that he is a hooker and not a scrum half. He is clearly better suited to that position. He is a world cup winning hooker and we have Mark Riddell and Michael McIlorum penned down on long contracts so he will not get the opportunity to play there. At scrum half he shows good individual flair at times. A good step on him, can read the game pretty well and has a bit of pace but he does not direct the team around the park and is not creative enough compared to the likes of Long and Rob Burrow (just take that 40/20 as an example could you imagine Tommy doing that?) He is very good in defense most of the time but he does not have a good kicking game. Close to the line he is pretty good but in general play he is average at best. Now I would say keep him if it wasn't for Michael Dobson. I wont repeat my previous points about him but he is twice the player Leuluai is. Just look how he tore us apart for Hull KR. He is fast, reads the game well, directs his players around the park and is at a good age. He has a fantastic kicking game and is a good goal kicker as well. But his most stand out point is he is a much more creative player than Thomas Leuluai. He has the desire to stay in super league and so would offer some stability. Now he is only off contract in 2010 but I would offer Leuluai plus £££ for him to sign him up now. If not then I would offer Leuluai an extension for a year and then move for Dobson when is off contract.

So in the future our 1 6 7 9 and 13 should look something like this:

Pat Richards till 2011
Sam Tomkins for the rest of his career.
Michael Dobson till 2011 - possibly further.
Mark Riddell till 2011
Sean O'loughlin till 2010 - possibly for the rest of his career.

So for next season my recruitment would be like this:

Release
Tim Smith
Phil Bailey
Cameron Phelps
Andy Coley
Richie Mathers
Thomas Leuluai **
George Carmont**

Keep
Karl Pryce

New signings
Louie McCarthy Scarsbrook or Luke Bailey.
Michael Dobson**
A new centre.

Our team would look for the 2010 season

Pat Richards
Amos Roberts
Darrell Goulding or Karl Pryce
NEW CENTRE
Sean Ainscough

Sam Tomkins
Michael Dobson

Stuart Fielden
Mark Riddell
Louie McCarthy Scarsbrook or Luke Bailey

Joel Tomkins
Gareth Hock

Sean O'loughlin

--------------------------------

Feka Paleaasina
Eamon O'carroll/Paul Prescott
Michael McIlorum
Harrison Hansen/Lee Mossop

With the depth coming from the young academy players

** - providing we can get Michael Dobson or a new world class centre.

Now I have given my opinion on the solution to Wigan's problems. That is just an opinion. But the theory of promoting your young talent and opting for UK players before you look to the overseas for stability and consistency in your most pivotal positions I believe to be fact. Why? Well look at the Saints and Leeds side the 2 best sides in the league. Look at the Wigan sides of decades gone by. It was always Gregory/Edwards and Hanley.

The final and last debate is our coach - Brian Noble. The coaching aspect of the game is something I am not familiar with and can't really give any formal information about. BUT some observations I have made of Brian Noble's time here at Wigan:

- Bizarre contract extension - Richie Mathers and Cameron Phelps? How can we be rewarding good play when we are offering contracts to poor players. Richie Mathers was awful throughout last season and has been no better this season - isn't this the coaches responsbility to sort this out?

- Inconsistent and bizarre team selections. Starting an impact prop against Leeds and Wakefield? Opting to play with just one hooker and shuffle your side with one substitution. Playing Liam Colbon in the second row rather than give Lee Mossop a chance?

- Only when injuries/suspensions occur does he decide to play the young lads.

- Joel Tomkins when Lockers was injured
- Sean Ainscough when Pat Richards and Cameron Phelps were injured
- Sam Tomkins when Michael McIlorum was suspended.

- Does not seem to know who is best team is. Bailey at centre, shuffling the fullback position , changing his halves. Starting Feka one week playing him from the bench the next.

Do I have faith in the coach? No
Do I have faith in his recruitment? No.

I don't who is the answer. Rule out Edwards now because he wont leave rugby union. But Noble's contract does run out in 2009 and we should look for an Australian coach to replace him. That is about all I can say.

: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:23 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Age wise the squad is pretty well balanced in that we only have Coley, Carmont and Fielden around the 30 mark and I would expect Coley to leave at the end of the season, although IMO he has played o.k for the last two weeks.

We still need to recruit a big rough prop, and at least one centre.
Wigan will need to decide what happens with McIlorum, Riddell, Sam and Tommy.

Do we sign a half back and move Tommy to 9, if so what happens to McIlorum
I do like Dobson but his defence is on a par with Tim Smiths, so would a top class 6 be a better option and move Sam to 7?

I'm sure Wigan are looking at all the options.

I can see McIlorum, Riddell, Sam and Tommy getting the 2010 season to see how good they can be. If they aren't good enough either McIlorum or Tommy will go with a half back coming in (Dobson?)

A prop is definitely needed to replace Coley and hopefully take our pack up a level

A top class centre will be difficult to come by. Are there any decent English centres off contract? There's not many decent English centres though so I can see us looking to the NRL but who we will get is anyone's guess

: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:28 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Age wise the squad is pretty well balanced in that we only have Coley, Carmont and Fielden around the 30 mark and I would expect Coley to leave at the end of the season, although IMO he has played o.k for the last two weeks.

We still need to recruit a big rough prop, and at least one centre.
Wigan will need to decide what happens with McIlorum, Riddell, Sam and Tommy.

Do we sign a half back and move Tommy to 9, if so what happens to McIlorum
I do like Dobson but his defence is on a par with Tim Smiths, so would a top class 6 be a better option and move Sam to 7?

I'm sure Wigan are looking at all the options.

It wasn't an age perspective thing but more of a contract thing.

How many seasons has Feka got left on his contract? Realistically if we sign a 30 something prop we could lose one front row a year for three years? Not really a good situation to be in.

In regards to the HB situation if we can learn one thing from Saints and Leeds (the two top teams in previous seasons) it’s the long partnerships they’ve had at HB- Long and Pryce- Burrow and Mcquire. If we want to win anything at all we have to look for a long term partner for Sam and let them gel. A new HB every two or three years like O’Neil, Orr, Trent isn’t the answer.

I agree tho we need a new HB, Centre and Prop I’d personally Gleeson, Dobson and LMS.

: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:39 pm  

thepriestman85 wrote:

It wasn't an age perspective thing but more of a contract thing.

How many seasons has Feka got left on his contract? Realistically if we sign a 30 something prop we could lose one front row a year for three years? Not really a good situation to be in.

In regards to the HB situation if we can learn one thing from Saints and Leeds (the two top teams in previous seasons) it’s the long partnerships they’ve had at HB- Long and Pryce- Burrow and Mcquire. If we want to win anything at all we have to look for a long term partner for Sam and let them gel. A new HB every two or three years like O’Neil, Orr, Trent isn’t the answer.

I agree tho we need a new HB, Centre and Prop I’d personally Gleeson, Dobson and LMS.

They would be ideal.

Richards
Roberts
Glesson
Carmont
Ainscough
Sam
Dobson
Fielden
Riddell
LMS
Hansen
Tomkins
Lockers

Feka
Hock
Tommy
Prescott/Eamon

Mcilorum possibly a loan move could kick start his carrer like it did with Joel Tomkins.

: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:58 pm  

cadoo wrote:

for the 2010 season

Pat Richards
Amos Roberts
Darrell Goulding or Karl Pryce
NEW CENTRE
Sean Ainscough

Sam Tomkins
Michael Dobson

Stuart Fielden
Mark Riddell
Louie McCarthy Scarsbrook or Luke Bailey

Joel Tomkins
Gareth Hock

Sean O'loughlin

--------------------------------

Feka Paleaasina
Eamon O'carroll/Paul Prescott
Michael McIlorum
Harrison Hansen/Lee Mossop

With depth coming through the reserves

Excellent post mate it really was. The above team should be our team for the future and is not only an improvement on the one we have now but it’s also one which imo could win the league. It’s got the right numbers of overseas imports 5 being Richards, Roberts, Riddell, Dobson and Feka all are quality imports also which as you say is a major plus point. Gone should be the days of players like Phelps and Smith who just aren’t good enough to stop the developments of our academy good academy players.

I’ve said it numerous times now I sound like a broken record but Dobbo is the guy to take us forward and partner Tomkins for a long long time. He gets you the 40/20’s the drop goals when you need them but he also bags tries and creates them 2.

Bailey sounds like a good option at prop as he’s the right side of 30 but I’d like to see us recruit mostly GB eligible players and get a home grown base to our side. I just feel if we miss out on LMS someone like Saints or Leeds will snap him up and we’ll have missed out on a massive player for the future. I said the same about Elis when he was at Wakey and look how he has turned out now! Some times you just have to get these players whilst you can.

The only part I kind of disagree with is Gleeson for me he’s still a quality player who has suffered under Cullen and Lowes but has got undoubted potential and always creates a bag load of tries for his wing man and whether that be Ainscough or Roberts we have the wingers to finish them now.

All that can be said now is that this next recruitment drive is one of the most important ones in the clubs history. We can either go back up where we belong if IL truly gets the right people in who may cost money i.e Dobbo or we can continue on the same track we have been down for the last decade of being also rans by signing DV, O’Neil, Ainscough, Mathers, Phelps and Smith.

: Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:37 pm  

Bailey sounds like a good option at prop as he’s the right side of 30 but I’d like to see us recruit mostly GB eligible players and get a home grown base to our side. I just feel if we miss out on LMS someone like Saints or Leeds will snap him up and we’ll have missed out on a massive player for the future. I said the same about Elis when he was at Wakey and look how he has turned out now! Some times you just have to get these players whilst you can.

It is players like Louie McCarthy Scarsbrook that the club must be making moves for. Young british players that are a real talent. They are not only good players but they want to play in super league and want to stay in super league so they offer stability to the side because after 2 years you wont need to replace them in theory. Whereas an overseas player will most of the time only want to come to the UK for two or three years towards the end of their career or have no choice to come to the UK because they are below the standards in the NRL.

We need to be anticipating these young talents. In truth we should have moved for Joe Westerman and Sam Burgess. Imagine those two players in the same side. It is what Wigan used to do. They signed up the young players with the most potential - they even got the nickname "the cherry pickers" for doing so. Michael Shenton is another one in the future we should be trying to lure to Wigan. We need to be keeping a watch for these young British players because they are what makes up the core of a successful side.

All that can be said now is that this next recruitment drive is one of the most important ones in the clubs history. We can either go back up where we belong if IL truly gets the right people in who may cost money i.e Dobbo or we can continue on the same track we have been down for the last decade of being also rans by signing DV, O’Neil, Ainscough, Mathers, Phelps and Smith.

Agreed. Most of the "dead weight" in the side are coming off contract. Tim Smith, Cameron Phelps, Richie Mathers, Andy Coley, Phil Bailey. Fortunately most of these players don't need replacing as we have players capable of playing in these positions already in the side (Pat Richards at fullback) or within our academy (Lee Mossop second row, Sam Tomkins at Stand off)

But what it does do is free up some room on the salary cap. We are in need of a prop forward as a replacement for Andy Coley we have the funds available this time so there is no excuses from Ian Lenegan and also there are players of the right standard available as well as I have made evident.

George Carmont and Thomas Leuluai are two players who could also be replaced as I have mentioned in the great mammoth of a post! Michael Dobson would be my prime target - Leuluai + £££ maybe? The centre debate is a big issue. It depends on so many things. How well Karl Pryce fits into the side, how Darrell Goulding progresses this year - in theory we might not need a new centre if these two progress and establish themselves as first team players. Both have the potential. The final matter is how much quality is really available. The only British centre off contract to note is Martin Gleeson. Our opinions are divided on Gleeson I believe Saints and Warrington have had the best years out of him but on the other hand the Aussies must see something in him to be wanting to sign him so you may be right. Otherwise we would have to look overseas, which is fine as long as they bring something to the side that no British player or academy player could & if they are on a wage that reflects their ability. If none of these factors can be achieved then we sign George Carmont for an extra year and then review matters after 2010 when Michael Shenton is off contract.

: Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:43 pm  

cadoo wrote:

snip

Top post mate.

Although I think we will keep both Tommy and Carmont for the 2010 season at least

I agree 100% about Tommy being a 9 not a 7. He is good to have at 7 if you give him a proven top class 6 but I have my doubts about him playing there with a 19 year old. Dobson would be ideal but the chances of getting him at the end of this season are close to zero so again for the 2010 season are pivots are probably going to line up as Sam, Tommy, Riddell, McIlorum or possibly Lockyer/Orford, Sam, Riddell,Tommy/McIlorum with Tommy being released or McIlorum being sent out on loan

Letting Carmont go would be a silly thing to do IMO. There is a shortage of good centre's in the game at the moment and an even bigger shortage of good centre's that are available. Someone has mentioned on another thread that he only started first grade 5/6 years ago so his body won't be as knackered as other people his age so I would like to see him for the 2010 season and go for someone like Shenton (off contract at the same time as we would release Carmont)