Re: England Secure Test Series Win Over Tonga : Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:43 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

I'm not bothered one iota about Woolf, what I don't want is Wane going tit for tat based off some old grievance from club land rivalry. That to me is the definition of a tin pot approach.

It's ironic (& this isn't just aimed at your sorry) that Wigan fans will bemoan Saints fans moaning about Wane because he's a Wiganer and then will defend the guy to the hilt simply because he's a Wiganer.

I'm sure Wane is a lovely guy and does loads of things right. There's a hell of a lot of flaws in there too however.

It isn’t a Wigan thing in the slightest, it’s a ‘he’s done a decent job in really poor circumstances’ thing. I used to back Steve McNamara as well because he did a pretty good job as well but there are always people with the knifes out and it comes down to nothing other than club bias, with people not happy about selections, not happy that a former coach of theirs is being called out and so on.

Wane took in this job at a time the World Stopped. He has dealt with disruption after disruption and finally got in to a run of proper games In the World Cup last year. His side were absolutely superb and dismantled a Samoa team, who were tipped to beat them and then a PNG side in the Quarters, who were again tipped to cause them major bother. The semi went west (yet we still should’ve won) but all I heard Wane do was blame himself and make no excuses. He’s now come back and won his first proper series with a game to spare, minus a load of his best players and against a Tonga side people were again tipping to beat England. It just feels like he can’t win at the minute whatever happens and as I mention above, that’s been the same with other international coaches in the past.

Re: England Secure Test Series Win Over Tonga : Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:49 pm  

Zig wrote:

We had the best coach the game has probably seen in Wayne Bennett and, guess what, he couldn't win us a World Cup. The common denominator is that our players are simply not good enough, period.

Yes of course, don’t disagree with that at all. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be ambitious and shouldn’t give ourselves the best possible chance. It’s likely we won’t win the World Cup in our lifetimes, but that still has to be the aim. And the very minimum standards should be only getting knocked out of any tournament by Australia or New Zealand and Wane didn’t even meet that.

I’ll be honest, I didn’t hate the Wane appointment at the time and thought his passion would do us some good. I also thought he deserved a crack due to his success at Wigan. I think he’s shown he’s not got it in him. His selections are awful, his tactics are both boring and unsuccessful. People are praising him for bringing through young players but that’s nonsense, his selections have been anything but. Do you think Mikey Lewis gets a sniff of game time if Williams and Lomax are available? Ditto Ashton if Makinson didn’t pull out? Hell, if Tomkins hadn’t retired there’s a very big chance he goes with Tomkins at FB with Welsby and Williams in the halves again, and even Harry Smith wouldn’t be playing. Why hasn’t Dupree been playing? Why on Earth is he playing Chris’s Hill and the likes of Bateman and Whitehead when there’s not even a sniff of a chance they’ll be playing in the next World Cup? He needs to be getting the lads that are actually going to be around for the next tournament ready to do so, and giving them experience of playing internationally but he’s not, he’s focusing on grinding out a boring win in a friendly against a team we should be beating anyway and his selection shows that. It’s very poor

Re: England Secure Test Series Win Over Tonga : Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:53 pm  

Saints fans calling Wane boring, Woolf ball was absolutely painful to watch when he won his 2 covid cups.

Re: England Secure Test Series Win Over Tonga : Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:56 pm  

NSW wrote:

Saints fans calling Wane boring, Woolf ball was absolutely painful to watch when he won his 2 covid cups.

I also said Woolf was boring and wouldn’t want him in charge of England?

Re: England Secure Test Series Win Over Tonga : Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:57 pm  

The Reaper wrote:

Not really, I was responding to the guy that said I’d probably say woolf was the better candidate and “look how that turned out”. I don’t want Woolf in charge of England nor do I think Wane beating him with a far superior squad makes him a better coach. It’s you guys that keep making assumptions about my allegiances… I don’t even think I mentioned Woolf in my initial post, as my post didn’t concern him in the slightest. In fact all I’ve really said about Woolf in here is that his team played just as dull, dour rugby as wane did and that I don’t want him in charge of England lmao.

It is in fact you that seems to have some kind of club agenda here, and don’t seem to like the fact that I think Wane in charge of England has been poor…

Again it’s coming down to the fact you don’t like any suggestion Wane could be out coaching Woolf or could be a better coach, so forgive people for thinking you might not be fully invested in England winning these games.

All this guff about Friendlies and Englands ‘far superior side’ is make believe to suit your narrative. Tonga isn’t a team of pub players, they’re ranked above England, they have guys like Fonua-Blake, Frizell, Koloamatangi, Olakau'atu etc who considered some of the best players in their positions in the NRL, so you’ll have to pull the other one if you think this is a nothing side Wanes England (minus a load of first choice players) are beating. Woolf really should be getting far more out of them, they were awful in the WC and have been poor again here and he has to take some responsibility for that.

Re: England Secure Test Series Win Over Tonga : Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:58 pm  

The Reaper wrote:

Yes of course, don’t disagree with that at all. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be ambitious and shouldn’t give ourselves the best possible chance. It’s likely we won’t win the World Cup in our lifetimes, but that still has to be the aim. And the very minimum standards should be only getting knocked out of any tournament by Australia or New Zealand and Wane didn’t even meet that.

I’ll be honest, I didn’t hate the Wane appointment at the time and thought his passion would do us some good. I also thought he deserved a crack due to his success at Wigan. I think he’s shown he’s not got it in him. His selections are awful, his tactics are both boring and unsuccessful. People are praising him for bringing through young players but that’s nonsense, his selections have been anything but. Do you think Mikey Lewis gets a sniff of game time if Williams and Lomax are available? Ditto Ashton if Makinson didn’t pull out? Hell, if Tomkins hadn’t retired there’s a very big chance he goes with Tomkins at FB with Welsby and Williams in the halves again, and even Harry Smith wouldn’t be playing. Why hasn’t Dupree been playing? Why on Earth is he playing Chris’s Hill and the likes of Bateman and Whitehead when there’s not even a sniff of a chance they’ll be playing in the next World Cup? He needs to be getting the lads that are actually going to be around for the next tournament ready to do so, and giving them experience of playing internationally but he’s not, he’s focusing on grinding out a boring win in a friendly against a team we should be beating anyway and his selection shows that. It’s very poor

Williams > Lewis (and Lomax doesnt do internationals)
Makinson > Ashton but I get the point about the next world cup

Theres a very good argument that the team would be better with Tomkins at fullback and Welsby in the halves (bar 1 pass, Welsby has hardly been a standout) but its moot as it didnt happen

With regards Dupree and the 2nd row, I agree

Re: England Secure Test Series Win Over Tonga : Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:08 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

It isn’t a Wigan thing in the slightest, it’s a ‘he’s done a decent job in really poor circumstances’ thing. I used to back Steve McNamara as well because he did a pretty good job as well but there are always people with the knifes out and it comes down to nothing other than club bias, with people not happy about selections, not happy that a former coach of theirs is being called out and so on.

Wane took in this job at a time the World Stopped. He has dealt with disruption after disruption and finally got in to a run of proper games In the World Cup last year. His side were absolutely superb and dismantled a Samoa team, who were tipped to beat them and then a PNG side in the Quarters, who were again tipped to cause them major bother. The semi went west (yet we still should’ve won) but all I heard Wane do was blame himself and make no excuses. He’s now come back and won his first proper series with a game to spare, minus a load of his best players and against a Tonga side people were again tipping to beat England. It just feels like he can’t win at the minute whatever happens and as I mention above, that’s been the same with other international coaches in the past.

Honestly, I'm not arguing with the above. I'd say Wane has done alright/well enough. It's a tough gig and we struggle for coaches.

My comment however, was in response to you saying the sport was tin pot. For me Wane going tit for tat is what makes it tin pot, or contributes to it. It's like ignoring the elephant in the room Imo. Let Woolf moan, don't rise to it. F

I get that's Wane tho and I'll also admit it's what doesn't endear me to him & didn't when he was the Wigan coach. I get others won't agree and love that stuff, but it all seems a bit beneath a top coach.

Re: England Secure Test Series Win Over Tonga : Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:16 pm  

[Gareth] wrote:

Williams > Lewis (and Lomax doesnt do internationals)
Makinson > Ashton but I get the point about the next world cup

Theres a very good argument that the team would be better with Tomkins at fullback and Welsby in the halves (bar 1 pass, Welsby has hardly been a standout) but its moot as it didnt happen

With regards Dupree and the 2nd row, I agree

I agree with all of that, but that’s what I mean about him focusing on just winning these games above all else when I don’t think that’s really the be all and end all of these series. We should be getting the next lot of lads ready to do something when it actually matters. Who really cares if we beat Tonga in a series? Like, obviously we want to win but in the big picture it doesn’t matter at all, and nobody will be remembering these games.

In a series of friendlies against second rate opposition (sorry Nicky but any international team playing Hopoate at fullback is not a serious international team. Dude is technically good but slower than Wellens at the back end of his career and runs with as much intensity as my grandad) the focus should surely be putting in an entertaining performance on free to air television and making a good impression so that anybody catching the game might stick around and preparing our team for future tournaments. Obviously play to win, but you don’t need to go as far as playing one out, negative drivel to grind out a win, picking a bunch of seniors that are close to retirement, half of which shouldn’t even be there on merit even discounting the above argument.

Re: England Secure Test Series Win Over Tonga : Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:21 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

Honestly, I'm not arguing with the above. I'd say Wane has done alright/well enough. It's a tough gig and we struggle for coaches.

My comment however, was in response to you saying the sport was tin pot. For me Wane going tit for tat is what makes it tin pot, or contributes to it. It's like ignoring the elephant in the room Imo. Let Woolf moan, don't rise to it. F

I get that's Wane tho and I'll also admit it's what doesn't endear me to him & didn't when he was the Wigan coach. I get others won't agree and love that stuff, but it all seems a bit beneath a top coach.

People will have varying opinions but as mentioned above, I think we need more of this type of stuff. The game is full of really decent people, who stick to an unwritten code of leaving things on the field but sometimes, there is nothing that promotes a game like a bit of needle between individuals. I wouldn’t want it staged or forced, like in boxing (at times) but a natural spat can set games up extremely well. If people want to speak their minds, then do it.

Re: England Secure Test Series Win Over Tonga : Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:26 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

People will have varying opinions but as mentioned above, I think we need more of this type of stuff. The game is full of really decent people, who stick to an unwritten code of leaving things on the field but sometimes, there is nothing that promotes a game like a bit of needle between individuals. I wouldn’t want it staged or forced, like in boxing (at times) but a natural spat can set games up extremely well. If people want to speak their minds, then do it.

I wouldn’t mind it if it wasn’t so ridiculous. Like if he’d been real and said he hates Woolf and talks about how Woolf completely undermined Englands World Cup success by having Saints players not represent over his 3 years etc then it could have been a real bit of controversy and ham that could get people caring.

But what he was actually going in over was completely ridiculous. Woolf made excuses for losing. So what? Does he not watch Super League? You’ve got coaches going in on the ref, the other team etc etc every single week. Vast majority of coaches make excuses for losing. Who gives a crap? It’s hardly worth spitting your dummy out over and nor is it going to get any England fans pumped or neutrals interested

It just looks even stupider when they interview Woolf right after and he just laughs the whole thing off