Re: Welsby : Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:39 pm  

The Reaper wrote:

I’ve been hearing this line trotted out for years about the quality of the game being much worse than before etc. Every time I watch a game back from the early and mid 00s which are considered the golden era of super league, I can’t help but see how absolutely awful the level of defending was. Yes the attack was great, but the standard of defending was dog and it makes the attacking look a lot better. And you had teams regularly getting pumped by 70/80 points. Don’t think it speaks to the quality really being loads better.

Reality is every generation says this about whatever sport they’re talking about. It’s just nostalgia and nothing more. In reality the game is 1000x faster than it was back then. More handling errors probably because of that fact but in my opinion at least it’s a much better spectacle because of that increase in intensity.

I saw a Saints fan say on Twitter that he refuses to have it that players now are worse than the early 2000’s across the league and therefore this is a side comparable and maybe better than any side in this era of Superleague. What he is ignoring is that a a good few of our best players are now in the NRL and the quality of import is drastically down on those of the early 2000’s. If Saints fans want to think it’s nostalgia to believe sides including Lyon, Long, Cunningham, Graham, Prime Roby, Sculthorpe etc wouldn’t comfortably beat this one then so be it.

You’re beating all before you to Grand Finals and that’s great for you but if we compare the teams you’ve beat in these finals to teams losing finals in the early 2000’s it’s chalk and cheese. We lost a final to you guys with a side containing Radlinski, Renouf, Jason Robinson, Terry Newton, Andy Farrell etc. That side would’ve put 30 on our final team in 2020 and would beat this Saints side with some to spare and again believe that is nostalgia all you like but the overall quality of the teams over here are as low as I can remember.

Saints are the best side of the last 5 years by an absolute mile but I’d take a few teams just in the Superleague era ahead of them. Look at the World Club Challenge results from the early 2000’s to recent years and try and tell me the quality of sides hasn’t dropped off a cliff here.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:46 pm  

The Reaper wrote:

Not sure it’s as much of a shambles as allowing Bateman to use up his suspension on games he was never going to play, if we’re honest.

The whole thing is a shambles. It has been all year

I agree, it’s all a complete and utter shambles and debating which decision is more shambolic then the next is pointless really. I look at Martin missing two play off games for his ‘bad challenge’ and then I see Knowles playing in a Grand Final and Bateman using games up in B fixtures and it sums it all up. An absolute farce and self harm for the game.

Re: Welsby : Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:00 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I saw a Saints fan say on Twitter that he refuses to have it that players now are worse than the early 2000’s across the league and therefore this is a side comparable and maybe better than any side in this era of Superleague. What he is ignoring is that a a good few of our best players are now in the NRL and the quality of import is drastically down on those of the early 2000’s. If Saints fans want to think it’s nostalgia to believe sides including Lyon, Long, Cunningham, Graham, Prime Roby, Sculthorpe etc wouldn’t comfortably beat this one then so be it.

You’re beating all before you to Grand Finals and that’s great for you but if we compare the teams you’ve beat in these finals to teams losing finals in the early 2000’s it’s chalk and cheese. We lost a final to you guys with a side containing Radlinski, Renouf, Jason Robinson, Terry Newton, Andy Farrell etc. That side would’ve put 30 on our final team in 2020 and would beat this Saints side with some to spare and again believe that is nostalgia all you like but the overall quality of the teams over here are as low as I can remember.

Saints are the best side of the last 5 years by an absolute mile but I’d take a few teams just in the Superleague era ahead of them. Look at the World Club Challenge results from the early 2000’s to recent years and try and tell me the quality of sides hasn’t dropped off a cliff here.

When it comes to the top teams you’re probably right, although I do think nostalgia plays a part in thinking that those players are head and shoulders above todays players. You never really appreciate what’s going on right now until it’s in the past. There’s a fair few players going around today that I think could play in those teams just fine and not be out of place. Who’s to say people like Lomax, Makinson, Walmsley, Farell, McIlorum, Tomkins won’t be held in similar esteem 15 years from now.

The quality throughout the league is largely better though I think. There’s much better matches on a general week to week basis.

Re: Welsby : Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:22 pm  

The quality is spread around more for sure, that’s the salary cap for you. Our best sides now aren’t as good in quality imo as the best teams in the early 2000’s but then the worst teams probably aren’t as bad as some of the worst ones from that time either. The salary cap was brought in to level things ‘up’ but all it’s ever done for me is level things ‘down’ and that can’t be right.

It’s probably the wrong time for a debate about the leagues quality though. I really don’t want to sound like a bitter Wigan fan. It’s not this Saints teams fault if the overall quality of the league isn’t where we’d like it to be. You’re playing under the same conditions as everyone else and have consistently been better than everyone else for 5 seasons now. I look at us this season and we’ve improved and part of that is because Saints are making us improve and driving standards. I shudder to think what a bad place this league would be in if Saints were not making teams work to improve. It isn’t rocket science what Saints have done this last few seasons. It’s built on commitment, desire, hard work and gaining the small percentage wins. Too many teams want to cut corners and Saints have never done that.

Re: Welsby : Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:18 am  

Stu M wrote:

Or Wigan would've had to compete in a salary cap era where they weren't allowed to blow other teams out of the water with transfer fees and wages.

Remember when Paul Vautin & Mike O'Connor came over in 88 to play for free, bricklaying on the side, great days.

Re: Welsby : Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:09 am  

bazdev wrote:

He will have a point. No side has ever won 4 grand finals in a row. They could achieve something that is never equalled. Sad but true

And no side has ever lost 5 Grand Finals in a row, apart from Saints!

Re: Welsby : Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:58 pm  

Zig wrote:

You need to look at Wigan’s record or are you trying to re-write history?

I think he means the greatest team in St Helens in the year 2022 , greatest side ever ? He must have missed all of the NRL games for the past couple of decades . best side in UK ever ? I would say no .

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:00 pm  

Stu M wrote:

I’ve deliberately not gone early with this in case we lost today however….

For all the Wigan fans mocking us talking about injuries they’ve realised now it’s the quality of players out not quantity.

Cust, Farrell and French as a passenger was too much quality missing. We’ve had Dodd out since April, Percival since May and Grace more or less all season. That’s without mentioning Hopoate.

Finally I’m made up Wigan lost but how do you sell a Sport to new fans whereby Leeds make the Final.

They were in genuine crisis this season, sacked a coach, got some beatings, but managed to get just above a 50% win record and then win 2 games and here we are. This isn't an achievement, it's merely being decent for a little while.

We aren’t guaranteed to do 4 in a row but if we do…

Jason will have to admit we are the best team in the comp.

I’m also pleased that Smith bottled those goal kicks. Karma for giving it the billy big bollox rubbing Welsby’s head a few weeks ago and laughing in his face. And before you all start I don’t agree with Welsby’s antics at Magic either

Similar to Smithies. Sticks his head in every ptb, dropped a forearm on Bentley and Bentley outplayed him all game

Stu,as you have won the GF you are now officially the best team this season,hope that clears things up now.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:04 pm  

Congratulations Saints - fantastic performance. Wouldn't have been any different if we'd beaten Leeds - their intensity across the 80 minutes is unmatched just now.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:35 pm  

MadDogg wrote:

Congratulations Saints - fantastic performance. Wouldn't have been any different if we'd beaten Leeds - their intensity across the 80 minutes is unmatched just now.

Agreed thats what we should be looking to improve next year. To be able to play at full pelt for 80 mins