Re: Bateman leaving confirmed : Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:47 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I think the world of Havard and even as is, he’s our best prop but I do think he lacks natural aggression and that could mean he stays as a good Superleague prop, when IMO he should go on to be an international and one of the best props in the world.

I don’t think Jonh is bagging him as such but simply pointing out guys like him and KPP lack that natural mongrel that guys like Bateman and Partington have. Maybe the reason for that is obvious, in that the latter 2 need to have that due to a lack of size. Combine the size and natural ability of Havard, with the attitude and aggression of Partington and you have a World Class player. If Havard can just find a bit of an edge he can go wherever he wants to in his career.

That's a solid argument, but isn't what he said.

It also ignores the fact that those players with the "mongrel" in them aren't doing anything of note? So highlighting a player who made the most yards as;

needing to increase their on field persona in that department significantly as those 2 in particular let the KR pack roll them over and tickle their tummies on Saturday.

Makes no sense & frankly it's stupid. If making 3rd amount of yards of all the props on the pitch is rolling over - then what can you say about the other Wigan props?

Re: Bateman leaving confirmed : Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:01 pm  

I reckon all our props could make a lot more yards if our no.9 gave the opposition something to think about, as it is he doesn't and this lets them line up our forwards and hit them on the gain line.
You can't fault his effort or commitment but he kills our attack

Re: Bateman leaving confirmed : Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:03 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I think the world of Havard and even as is, he’s our best prop but I do think he lacks natural aggression and that could mean he stays as a good Superleague prop, when IMO he should go on to be an international and one of the best props in the world.

I don’t think Jonh is bagging him as such but simply pointing out guys like him and KPP lack that natural mongrel that guys like Bateman and Partington have. Maybe the reason for that is obvious, in that the latter 2 need to have that due to a lack of size. Combine the size and natural ability of Havard, with the attitude and aggression of Partington and you have a World Class player. If Havard can just find a bit of an edge he can go wherever he wants to in his career.

Correct.

Absolutely not bagging Havard however he needs to find that in him. A bit like Lucas did in the old days towards the end of his career which took his game to the next level prior to it being cut short through injury.

The point I was making was that we have lost a couple of lads who used to thrive at taking the physical/confrontational side of the game to the opposition.

They haven’t been replaced and on the evidence of Saturday lads that have taken their place particularly if they are expected to start need to find it in themselves.

Re: Bateman leaving confirmed : Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:15 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

That's a solid argument, but isn't what he said.

It also ignores the fact that those players with the "mongrel" in them aren't doing anything of note? So highlighting a player who made the most yards as;

Makes no sense & frankly it's stupid. If making 3rd amount of yards of all the props on the pitch is rolling over - then what can you say about the other Wigan props?

Making yards isn’t the same as getting rolled over.

Rolled over by the opposition happens when you don’t have the ball, not when you have it.

It’s what you do in contact and the wrestle..not what you do with the carry.

It involves the basics of where you put your head, where you take control of the opponent’s levers to slow the PTB.

Harvard is probably the most talented Prop we have but he needs to add that to his game if he is to reach his full potential.

Peet even talked about us being soft post game.

All our props were terrible on Saturday…but you do realise these lads mentioned have played before and shown those characteristics, Havard hasn’t…yet.

16 tackles, with 5 missed for Havard, unacceptable especially for a starting prop.

I think he will be one targeted by the coaches in the week as an area he needs to improve.

Was keen to have a look at the stats…also going off stats to support your argument as you have done identifies Ellis as comfortably our best prop in 2022 and King our most effective back on Saturday.

The stats also show how ineffective Havard was in defence on Saturday, 15 tackles with 6 misses, he wasn’t alone in that though Faz, Powell and Smithies all very poor in that department.

Ironically Ellis and Singleton were up there as our best middle defenders however Byrne just shades them, however non posted great stats although for the time he was on the field Ellis’s were ok.