Re: Cas Game : Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:09 am  

nathan_rugby wrote:

How can you honestly say we are not far off being a very good side when you look at the last 3 games?

Field carried us last night.

Our winger / centres combinations is atrocious
Cust blowing hot and cold
Still feel weak in the props
Bateman stealing a marquee salary
Isa offers too little in attack to play long minutes

Imo we are miles off being a very good side.

That being said I still expect us to finish 3rd this year but that doesn’t make us a very good side. The league standard is very poor.

He can say it because he's right.

Wing/Centre - our two starting centres were missing last night. Also Zak is OOC, so there's room to bring in someone new if needed.

Cust - I thought he's been good

Props - Agree, but one extra prop sorts that out. Just like Ellis has been a big boost.

Bateman - like the rest of our undersized pack, he's struggling as we don't have any size to support him. He's not got Papalii & Lui to soften them up.

Isa - agree, but this is a simple selection issue. Smithies can do what he does and Partington proved he can too.

With the above in mind, I'm not sure how you can label us as "miles off". A prop and potentially a centre and we've addressed all your concerns. Hardly a full team transformation etc.

Re: Cas Game : Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:14 am  

jonh wrote:

By very good I mean one that can consistently win trophies. As I mentioned I think this is a final transitional year.

Our forwards are moving in the right direction. Mago seems to be the current player to be thrown under the bus but 2 weeks ago most people we raving about him, I am confused by how he was used last night. Ellis is a cracking signing in my opinion, Havard is class Byrn, Patington, Singleton and Smithies are all very useful although probably could do with finding more consistency. Not having a natural 13 is damaging us and I would like to see that addressed in the offseason. Isa, Faz and Bateman are all too similar. Moving KPP back into the pack helps with that but we still miss that link at 13. Faz and Isa don't have that in them and Bateman looks like he is trying too hard to be that player. I would be taking the 13 shirt of Bateman in 2023 give him back the secondrow shirt and let him get back to basics. A secondrow rotation on KPP, Faz and Bateman is more effective than we currently have.

I would be comfortable to see Ellis move to 13 but if we were to look at that we would need to recruit another Prop.

We are likely to be losing from the team Hardaker and Tommy. Both need replacing with like for like ie a centre and a half. We are also more than likely going to be losing one of French/Field so we should have the finances to bring in a Prop also.

I think with 3 replaements ie half, centre and Prop/Middle this team will be there or there abouts.

I see most of our issues can be resolved with the players we currently have, however the squad is a little out of balance in certain positions and we will have to wait to see contracts run down to resolve that. Our recent history isn't good when it comes to letting declining players go and I hope we have learned from that. If we have then I genuinely see us becoming a very good side in 2023 with only a few minor adjustments.

Who do you think will leave at the end of this year to make way for better quality? (On the back of you saying this is final transitional year)

I too am confused by Mago's minutes last night but when he was on he got through some runs. Cannot recall his defence though? But if his line speed and tackling was fine then what more can he do?

When you say we miss the link at 13 what is it specifically? A forward who can tip on to other forwards and pass round the back? Or a forward who can link up with the backs? If its the latter then I partially disagree because you can use your fullback for that and go from POTB to 7 to 6 to 1. You would never have a 13 thrown in that sequence as well as its too many hands.

I do agree with KPP. Throwing him in the mix at 2nd row gives us options. But it would mean moving Bateman to 13, which based on his current form, I don't mind. It isn't like he is punching holes out wide and causing havoc.

Re: Cas Game : Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:17 am  

sergeant pepper wrote:

He can say it because he's right.

Wing/Centre - our two starting centres were missing last night. Also Zak is OOC, so there's room to bring in someone new if needed.

Cust - I thought he's been good

Props - Agree, but one extra prop sorts that out. Just like Ellis has been a big boost.

Bateman - like the rest of our undersized pack, he's struggling as we don't have any size to support him. He's not got Papalii & Lui to soften them up.

Isa - agree, but this is a simple selection issue. Smithies can do what he does and Partington proved he can too.

With the above in mind, I'm not sure how you can label us as "miles off". A prop and potentially a centre and we've addressed all your concerns. Hardly a full team transformation etc.

Two starting centres were missing but that is Thornley and Bibby...

Props - Who is going to depart to make room for one extra prop?

Isa - Is he out of contract for 2023? I agree he isn't offering much more than what we already have available.

When you look at the last 3 games, we are miles off being a side that wins things, a centre and a prop won't fix that.

Re: Cas Game : Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:27 am  

nathan_rugby wrote:

Two starting centres were missing but that is Thornley and Bibby...

Props - Who is going to depart to make room for one extra prop?

Isa - Is he out of contract for 2023? I agree he isn't offering much more than what we already have available.

When you look at the last 3 games, we are miles off being a side that wins things, a centre and a prop won't fix that.

I don't necessarily think it needs to be one in, one out at prop. Last night showed that we need another body on top of what we already have. Playing two 2nd rows there isn't good enough + an extra, ready to go player, helps us rotate across the season.

I actually think Thornley is a shrewd signing. Granted it was only preseason, but I think you could see what he'll bring to the side i.e early front foot ball. Granted Bibby is a defensive centre, but he's also one of the best at it in SL too. Both are an improvement on last night & like pieces of a jigsaw will improve the balance of the team.

Isa - yup, he's still here for 2023. Doesn't mean he has to start or even play tho. Maybe he'll fill that Amor role in the squad?

Re: Cas Game : Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:44 am  

jonh wrote:

By very good I mean one that can consistently win trophies. As I mentioned I think this is a final transitional year.

Our forwards are moving in the right direction. Mago seems to be the current player to be thrown under the bus but 2 weeks ago most people we raving about him, I am confused by how he was used last night. Ellis is a cracking signing in my opinion, Havard is class Byrn, Patington, Singleton and Smithies are all very useful although probably could do with finding more consistency. Not having a natural 13 is damaging us and I would like to see that addressed in the offseason. Isa, Faz and Bateman are all too similar. Moving KPP back into the pack helps with that but we still miss that link at 13. Faz and Isa don't have that in them and Bateman looks like he is trying too hard to be that player. I would be taking the 13 shirt of Bateman in 2023 give him back the secondrow shirt and let him get back to basics. A secondrow rotation on KPP, Faz and Bateman is more effective than we currently have.

I would be comfortable to see Ellis move to 13 but if we were to look at that we would need to recruit another Prop.

We are likely to be losing from the team Hardaker and Tommy. Both need replacing with like for like ie a centre and a half. We are also more than likely going to be losing one of French/Field so we should have the finances to bring in a Prop also.

I think with 3 replacements ie half, centre and Prop/Middle this team will be there or there abouts.

I see most of our issues can be resolved with the players we currently have, however the squad is a little out of balance in certain positions and we will have to wait to see contracts run down to resolve that. Our recent history isn't good when it comes to letting declining players go and I hope we have learned from that. If we have then I genuinely see us becoming a very good side in 2023 with only a few minor adjustments.

In regards to last nights game I also think Bibby was a big miss. He is another player that I think is very underrated by some of our supporters because he isn't a big name signing.

I’m confused with how Mago was and is being used as well. I’d want him on the field for as long as possible and I don’t believe that is all he’s capable off. He looks shattered granted, but he looked shattered in the warm up and I still honestly just believe it’s his style. He ran 60 odd metres at 9 metres a carry last night. I’m not asking for him to be on for an hour a game but I can’t see why 35-40 mins or so, in a couple of spells, isn’t achievable.

Re: Cas Game : Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:13 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

I’m confused with how Mago was and is being used as well. I’d want him on the field for as long as possible and I don’t believe that is all he’s capable off. He looks shattered granted, but he looked shattered in the warm up and I still honestly just believe it’s his style. He ran 60 odd metres at 9 metres a carry last night. I’m not asking for him to be on for an hour a game but I can’t see why 35-40 mins or so, in a couple of spells, isn’t achievable.

Peet did say in his presser that players were carrying knocks and certain players were playing hurt. Maybe Mago was one of them?

Re: Cas Game : Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:17 am  

You win nothing in March.

We will finish in the top 6, and more likely the top 4. What I want to see is us start to get better as the weeks go on and be hitting our straps come early August. Plenty of times there were poor performances and results under Wane (and it frustrated the life out of me) but you knew that come August time we would be very very tough to beat and rarely lost outside of the Grand Final.

There are bound to be rough edges at the minute with a new coach, new halves etc and working out the best rotations of the forwards. If we can smooth those out between now and August then we will be in good shape for the business end of the season.

Re: Cas Game : Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:27 am  

nathan_rugby wrote:

Who do you think will leave at the end of this year to make way for better quality? (On the back of you saying this is final transitional year)

I too am confused by Mago's minutes last night but when he was on he got through some runs. Cannot recall his defence though? But if his line speed and tackling was fine then what more can he do?

When you say we miss the link at 13 what is it specifically? A forward who can tip on to other forwards and pass round the back? Or a forward who can link up with the backs? If its the latter then I partially disagree because you can use your fullback for that and go from POTB to 7 to 6 to 1. You would never have a 13 thrown in that sequence as well as its too many hands.

I do agree with KPP. Throwing him in the mix at 2nd row gives us options. But it would mean moving Bateman to 13, which based on his current form, I don't mind. It isn't like he is punching holes out wide and causing havoc.

I think Hardaker and Tommy will go. As mentioned earlier I don't think Smith is the type of half Wigan can rely on now or in the future so he needs replacing.

Both those lads will be on good money, one issue we have though is the use of quota spots, we have again painted ourselves into a corner here. The only 2 spaces we have from lads OOC are Field and French, we need to do everything we can to retain 1 of those lads. Maybe Field can be our answer at half to replace Tommy but I would like to see him get some big minutes under his belt there this year if he is expected to be our starting half next year.

Tommy and Cust are both organisers and I think we need a bit more of a running threat to combine with Cust so Field could offer a solution.

Another solution at half could be Jake Trueman, he has stagnated at Cas and needs a move. He is a quality half though and lots more to come from him and he offers that threat ball in hand, plus he isn't quota.

Isa is signed on for 2023, which I think is a very strange decision particularly as he is quota. I believe his partner now plays football in the States too so who knows there may be an opportunity for him to move on, he would be a great squad player but the fact he is quota is the issue.

In relation to the 13, I am just looking for someone to tip the ball on a bit more. As the moment the ball goes to Isa and he offers no option ball in hand. Ellis in his St George days seemed to have the ability to boss wedge plays etc from 13 playing as a middle forward rather than a prop. I appreciate a 1 can step into the line however if he is the only option it telegraphs where the strike threat is to the defence. Having a 6 and 1 on one side of the ruck and a 7 and 13 on the other in centre field creates threat. Running with a 6,7,1 all on the same side is an easy read.

Bateman I just feel is trying to be something he isn't. He looks to me to be carrying a knock but also carrying the burden on the 13 shirt. I think we can accommodate a rotation of 3 secondrow forwards, with Faz and Bateman having to get used to spending 15 mins of a game on the bench.

Re: Cas Game : Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:28 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Peet did say in his presser that players were carrying knocks and certain players were playing hurt. Maybe Mago was one of them?

Could well be, it did seem strange that he played so few minutes with both Singleton and Ellis out.

He’s going to divide opinion is Mago but I think we have enough steady forwards to then use a guy like Mago very wisely. We just need to get a few more minutes from him IMO.

Re: Cas Game : Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:30 am  

Egg Chasing wrote:

You win nothing in March.

We will finish in the top 6, and more likely the top 4. What I want to see is us start to get better as the weeks go on and be hitting our straps come early August. Plenty of times there were poor performances and results under Wane (and it frustrated the life out of me) but you knew that come August time we would be very very tough to beat and rarely lost outside of the Grand Final.

There are bound to be rough edges at the minute with a new coach, new halves etc and working out the best rotations of the forwards. If we can smooth those out between now and August then we will be in good shape for the business end of the season.

Agreed and a sensible approach/outlook to take.

We all know that when we're "on", our defence can make it difficult for any team. If we can get back to that and carry through the improvements in attack - I'll be happy.

The talk a few pages back about ripping up the team and starting again is just not feasible, but also falls into the kind of crazy, OTT reactionary stuff that does my head in.