Re: O/T Saints : Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:14 am  

7 or 8 or whatever it was, was last year

Welsby has an advantage over the other 2 in why he would be wanted more than the other 2

1/ He is physically more conditioned to their style etc.
Certainly more than Field, and has a Half back (which I think he could/should play) he'd be more suited than Fench who even we realise we are shoe Horning/adapting to that position, whilst the NRL teams.dont need to take that risk with French (in any position as they have an abundance of them)

2/Age - An NRL team would potentially take a risk on a younger player giving them more time to adapt to their requirements
He certainly has that advantage over French and Field

3/ Potential Being younger the ceiling is yet to be decided, the other 2 theirs has to an extent in the NRL

FWIW IMO
I couldn't give 2 hoots about who gets the next phone call from the NRL as it means nothing about who is better over in SL right here, right now
It could be argued that each clubs respective playing styles may contribute or disadvantage the perception or the contribution they are having to each team, how they are being coached etc.

As it stands Field & French for me at 1, but would take Welsby all day long as a 6

Re: O/T Saints : Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:15 am  

Stu M wrote: In many ways it’s a pointless argument. No Saints fan would swap Welsby for French/Field and no Wigan fan would swap French/Field. I knew when I posted Welsby’s stats that French had better stats but I only referred to them as a comeback to a fan on here that described him as “average” which is laughable. Also stats don’t paint the full picture. French scored 7 tries in one game this season didn’t he? The Hull game or was that last season? He’s also played games on the wing which would increase his tally too. It’s all subjective but the only part I’m trying to point out is that there’s talk in Aus about clubs wanting to sign Welsby yet no one seems to really want to sign French or Field. I’m sure both are happy at Wigan but let’s have it right had they the chance to go back to the NRL they would’ve gone like a shot. As would Sironen and Matautia at Saints. If we use the NRL as a yardstick for ability and competition then Welsby is more sought after than French or Field. I think there’s a reason for that. The 7 tries was last year and I'm pretty sure he hasn't played on the wing since March. There was rumours that French was going back to the NRL all last season in fact he was being reported as signed by the Knights in late August - https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/rl ... gland-role The idea he isn't on or hasn't been on the NRL's radar is just wrong. Using NRL interest as a the be all and end all quality gauge is a bit silly IMO, there's loads more to it than just "the NRL are more interested in Welsby, he must be a better player". Even if their stats were all equal (which they aren't) Welsby would fit the age, Salary cap value and size profile better than either French or Field. Doesn't automatically make him a better player. There's been no reports of NRL interest in Morgan Knowles this last couple of years but Kai Pearce Paul is already signed to the NRL and there's noise about Morgan Smithies too, are they, in your opinion, better players than Knowles??

Stu M wrote: In many ways it’s a pointless argument. No Saints fan would swap Welsby for French/Field and no Wigan fan would swap French/Field. I knew when I posted Welsby’s stats that French had better stats but I only referred to them as a comeback to a fan on here that described him as “average” which is laughable. Also stats don’t paint the full picture. French scored 7 tries in one game this season didn’t he? The Hull game or was that last season? He’s also played games on the wing which would increase his tally too. It’s all subjective but the only part I’m trying to point out is that there’s talk in Aus about clubs wanting to sign Welsby yet no one seems to really want to sign French or Field. I’m sure both are happy at Wigan but let’s have it right had they the chance to go back to the NRL they would’ve gone like a shot. As would Sironen and Matautia at Saints. If we use the NRL as a yardstick for ability and competition then Welsby is more sought after than French or Field. I think there’s a reason for that. The 7 tries was last year and I'm pretty sure he hasn't played on the wing since March. There was rumours that French was going back to the NRL all last season in fact he was being reported as signed by the Knights in late August - https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/rl ... gland-role The idea he isn't on or hasn't been on the NRL's radar is just wrong. Using NRL interest as a the be all and end all quality gauge is a bit silly IMO, there's loads more to it than just "the NRL are more interested in Welsby, he must be a better player". Even if their stats were all equal (which they aren't) Welsby would fit the age, Salary cap value and size profile better than either French or Field. Doesn't automatically make him a better player. There's been no reports of NRL interest in Morgan Knowles this last couple of years but Kai Pearce Paul is already signed to the NRL and there's noise about Morgan Smithies too, are they, in your opinion, better players than Knowles??

Re: O/T Saints : Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:22 am  

Jukesays wrote:

7 or 8 or whatever it was, was last year

Welsby has an advantage over the other 2 in why he would be wanted more than the other 2

1/ He is physically more conditioned to their style etc.
Certainly more than Field, and has a Half back (which I think he could/should play) he'd be more suited than Fench who even we realise we are shoe Horning/adapting to that position, whilst the NRL teams.dont need to take that risk with French (in any position as they have an abundance of them)

2/Age - An NRL team would potentially take a risk on a younger player giving them more time to adapt to their requirements
He certainly has that advantage over French and Field

3/ Potential Being younger the ceiling is yet to be decided, the other 2 theirs has to an extent in the NRL

FWIW IMO
I couldn't give 2 hoots about who gets the next phone call from the NRL as it means nothing about who is better over in SL right here, right now
It could be argued that each clubs respective playing styles may contribute or disadvantage the perception or the contribution they are having to each team, how they are being coached etc.

As it stands Field & French for me at 1, but would take Welsby all day long as a 6

Good post. I also agree with you, I think he’d make a better 6.

Re: O/T Saints : Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:25 am  

spartakmixtapes wrote: The 7 tries was last year and I'm pretty sure he hasn't played on the wing since March. There was rumours that French was going back to the NRL all last season in fact he was being reported as signed by the Knights in late August - https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/rl ... gland-role The idea he isn't on or hasn't been on the NRL's radar is just wrong. Using NRL interest as a the be all and end all quality gauge is a bit silly IMO, there's loads more to it than just "the NRL are more interested in Welsby, he must be a better player". Even if their stats were all equal (which they aren't) Welsby would fit the age, Salary cap value and size profile better than either French or Field. Doesn't automatically make him a better player. There's been no reports of NRL interest in Morgan Knowles this last couple of years but Kai Pearce Paul is already signed to the NRL and there's noise about Morgan Smithies too, are they, in your opinion, better players than Knowles?? Some good points well made. I don’t just use the NRL interest as the only gauge. I look at his man of the match performance when we beat Penrith in their own backyard. Even his competitiveness to score “that” try in the 2020 Grand Final. He was outstanding for England against Samoa in the first game of the WC. Granted he was quiet in the SF but he wasn’t on his own. I think he steps up in the big games. As I said it’s pointless really as naturally our own club loyalties massively affects our thinking. I’m biased as will Wigan fans be too.

spartakmixtapes wrote: The 7 tries was last year and I'm pretty sure he hasn't played on the wing since March. There was rumours that French was going back to the NRL all last season in fact he was being reported as signed by the Knights in late August - https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/rl ... gland-role The idea he isn't on or hasn't been on the NRL's radar is just wrong. Using NRL interest as a the be all and end all quality gauge is a bit silly IMO, there's loads more to it than just "the NRL are more interested in Welsby, he must be a better player". Even if their stats were all equal (which they aren't) Welsby would fit the age, Salary cap value and size profile better than either French or Field. Doesn't automatically make him a better player. There's been no reports of NRL interest in Morgan Knowles this last couple of years but Kai Pearce Paul is already signed to the NRL and there's noise about Morgan Smithies too, are they, in your opinion, better players than Knowles?? Some good points well made. I don’t just use the NRL interest as the only gauge. I look at his man of the match performance when we beat Penrith in their own backyard. Even his competitiveness to score “that” try in the 2020 Grand Final. He was outstanding for England against Samoa in the first game of the WC. Granted he was quiet in the SF but he wasn’t on his own. I think he steps up in the big games. As I said it’s pointless really as naturally our own club loyalties massively affects our thinking. I’m biased as will Wigan fans be too.

Re: O/T Saints : Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:42 am  

Stu M wrote:

In many ways it’s a pointless argument. No Saints fan would swap Welsby for French/Field and no Wigan fan would swap French/Field.

I knew when I posted Welsby’s stats that French had better stats but I only referred to them as a comeback to a fan on here that described him as “average” which is laughable.

Also stats don’t paint the full picture. French scored 7 tries in one game this season didn’t he? The Hull game or was that last season? He’s also played games on the wing which would increase his tally too.

It’s all subjective but the only part I’m trying to point out is that there’s talk in Aus about clubs wanting to sign Welsby yet no one seems to really want to sign French or Field. I’m sure both are happy at Wigan but let’s have it right had they the chance to go back to the NRL they would’ve gone like a shot. As would Sironen and Matautia at Saints.

If we use the NRL as a yardstick for ability and competition then Welsby is more sought after than French or Field. I think there’s a reason for that.

It was last season the Hull game yeah and French has played only a handful of games on the wing this season. I'd be interested to see if Welsby would score loads of trys on that Saints left wing btw. If it's that easy to score from the wing, i'm not sure why Tee Ritson has only 2 trys.

I've said that the stats don't tell you everything, so I agree with that but there is also no way that we can use NRL clubs wanting Welsby more than French or Field as a yardstick either. Who are these clubs that want Welsby? how do we know clubs don't want Field/French? what money are they offering? What is Welsby on now, in comparison to Field/French? None of us know the answers, so that doesn't stack up either.

As you say most people wouldn't swap given the chance but I just can't understand how anybody could be confident enough to say 'Welsby is the best' without having no quantifiable way of backing that up. I'd have him in the top 5 players in the league and probably wouldn't say there is a single player who is out and out the best but I could statistically back up French (and Field) outperforming Welsby this season. The comparison with Field is the most interesting to me, as both play at fullback. If you score comfortably more trys per game (0.74 per game vs 0.4 per game), assist pretty much the same (1 per game vs 1.04 per game) and you are better in defence, I certainly couldn't say you're a lesser player than your opposite number but maybe I'm missing something. I think we could have a different conversation if Welsby moved to what I think is his position at stand off (as pointed out by Jukesays).

Re: O/T Saints : Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:14 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

It was last season the Hull game yeah and French has played only a handful of games on the wing this season. I'd be interested to see if Welsby would score loads of trys on that Saints left wing btw. If it's that easy to score from the wing, i'm not sure why Tee Ritson has only 2 trys.

I've said that the stats don't tell you everything, so I agree with that but there is also no way that we can use NRL clubs wanting Welsby more than French or Field as a yardstick either. Who are these clubs that want Welsby? how do we know clubs don't want Field/French? what money are they offering? What is Welsby on now, in comparison to Field/French? None of us know the answers, so that doesn't stack up either.

As you say most people wouldn't swap given the chance but I just can't understand how anybody could be confident enough to say 'Welsby is the best' without having no quantifiable way of backing that up. I'd have him in the top 5 players in the league and probably wouldn't say there is a single player who is out and out the best but I could statistically back up French (and Field) outperforming Welsby this season. The comparison with Field is the most interesting to me, as both play at fullback. If you score comfortably more trys per game (0.74 per game vs 0.4 per game), assist pretty much the same (1 per game vs 1.04 per game) and you are better in defence, I certainly couldn't say you're a lesser player than your opposite number but maybe I'm missing something. I think we could have a different conversation if Welsby moved to what I think is his position at stand off (as pointed out by Jukesays).

It’s just my opinion. The stats you raise re Field are interesting. Just for balance though, Miski has as many tries as Makinson this season with more tackle busts.

However if I had to choose one of them for my team in a Grand Final it would be Makinson all day long.

Re: O/T Saints : Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:39 am  

Stu M wrote:

It’s just my opinion. The stats you raise re Field are interesting. Just for balance though, Miski has as many tries as Makinson this season with more tackle busts.

However if I had to choose one of them for my team in a Grand Final it would be Makinson all day long.

To highlight I'm trying to be as neutral as possible, I'd pick Makinson as well and would pick him ahead of any winger in Superleague because I think he's the best around but by the same token, I wouldn't take Welsby over Field or French, regardless of stats. The naked eye tells me Makinson is the best winger in the league but the naked eye doesn't say to me that Welsby is the best player in the league and stats just back that view up. He's one of the best (top 5 IMO) and that is playing at fullback, which I think is his second best position and he's younger than the other guys I'd have in that bracket, so his ceiling is probably higher but I think it's a bit media driven this line of 'Welsby is the best in the league'. If you're not as good in attack or defence as another fullback in the league, I'm stumped how anybody could give a concrete opinion of him being the leagues best player.

Re: O/T Saints : Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:44 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

To highlight I'm trying to be as neutral as possible, I'd pick Makinson as well and would pick him ahead of any winger in Superleague because I think he's the best around but by the same token, I wouldn't take Welsby over Field or French, regardless of stats. The naked eye tells me Makinson is the best winger in the league but the naked eye doesn't say to me that Welsby is the best player in the league and stats just back that view up. He's one of the best (top 5 IMO) and that is playing at fullback, which I think is his second best position and he's younger than the other guys I'd have in that bracket, so his ceiling is probably higher but I think it's a bit media driven this line of 'Welsby is the best in the league'. If you're not as good in attack or defence as another fullback in the league, I'm stumped how anybody could give a concrete opinion of him being the leagues best player.

It’s not a concrete opinion though is it? It’s just mine which you disagree with and that’s fine.

I did say very early on in many ways it’s a pointless debate.

Re: O/T Saints : Mon Sep 11, 2023 11:10 am  

All different players, all high quality players.

I think Welsby is the best all round player of the three but there is no doubt that Field and French are tremendous attacking weapons and in particular I think French is a superb player.

I'd like to see how Welsby would go if Saints could bring in a player with genuine pace (like a Field or French) as he is currently the only player across the spine with any pace at all which makes it a bit easier to try to manage him out of the game as the only genuine running threat.

Re: O/T Saints : Mon Sep 11, 2023 11:37 am  

Stu M wrote:

It’s not a concrete opinion though is it? It’s just mine which you disagree with and that’s fine.

I did say very early on in many ways it’s a pointless debate.

Aye but it's better than doing some work

Final word I'd give on it would be to say I think Welsby could become the best in the league if he moves to stand off but not at fullback. A couple of weaknesses are being exposed in that position that wouldn't be at stand off and a move to 6 would play to his strengths.