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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:23 am  
moto748 wrote:
Interesting about Smithies, cos it's not so long back people here (yeah, me, but not just me) were touting Shorrocks as a possible future 13 for Wigan. but it's beyond doubt that Smithies has really kicked on this season, and it's hard to argue with him not holding onto that shirt, barring injuries.


Yeah, Smithies has added to his offence, his defence has never been questioned. I had hoped Partington would do the same as I thought both where in a similar position but it’s not quite happened with Oli but I believe it can when he gets older and fills out a bit, likely that will be at another club though.
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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:35 am  
NickyKiss wrote:
I was sat earlier thinking what a great season Smithies is having and I’ve compared him many times to Morgan Knowles. I think Knowles is a player Smithies should look to emulate and potentially surpass. I thought I’d have a look at their stats side by side earlier and was pleasantly surprised that Smithies is comparing very well in most key areas and in 2 less appearances.This is far from trying to derail another thread and turn it in to a Wigan/Saints thing but I rate Knowles massively and it’s so good to see Smithies now stepping up.

The stats for anyone interested were-

Appearances
Smithies-15 Knowles-17

Carries
Smithies-152 Knowles-151

Metres
Smithies-1084 Knowles-1004

Avg gain
Smithies-7m Knowles-6.68m

Tackles
Smithies-483 Knowles-493

Missed tackles
Smithies-7 Knowles-47

Penalties
Smithies-4 Knowles-17

Errors
Smithies-7 Knowles-11

Try’s
Smithies-0 Knowles-2

I will add Knowles defends in a different system to Wigan and the missed tackles and penalties really highlights that and aren’t as horrendous as they look on paper. I also don’t think Knowles is having his best season in truth. It’s been a great 2022 for Smithies so far. He’s really kicked on and has plenty of improvement in him yet.


I've been impressed by Smithies this year - he has clearly kicked on and having a better pack around him now will undoubtedly have helped (as well as physically maturing).

You're right that the stats above can be a bit misleading as they don't tell the story of the unbelievable energy and toughness it takes for Knowles to lead the Saints defensive line (as evidenced by the missed tackles through leading the line and contact). It also means a big proportion of the tackles he does make are screaming off the line first man in which there is no stat for but is an enormous part of Saints effectiveness in defence.

smithies still has tons of development left in him and will become an ever better player.
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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:34 pm  
FearTheVee wrote:
I've been impressed by Smithies this year - he has clearly kicked on and having a better pack around him now will undoubtedly have helped (as well as physically maturing).

You're right that the stats above can be a bit misleading as they don't tell the story of the unbelievable energy and toughness it takes for Knowles to lead the Saints defensive line (as evidenced by the missed tackles through leading the line and contact). It also means a big proportion of the tackles he does make are screaming off the line first man in which there is no stat for but is an enormous part of Saints effectiveness in defence.

smithies still has tons of development left in him and will become an ever better player.


I rate Knowles massively and you guys have a similar battle we had with some opposition regarding Micky Mac on your hands.There’s no stats for somebody playing a game at frantic pace, showing aggression, the force they hit with and the way they inspire those around them and so on. If you showed somebody Knowles stats and you didn’t know the player, you’d go ‘he’s not all that’ but he is. I do recall plenty of Saints fans bashing Micky Mac (and I’ve seen some still doing the same recently) but he was huge for us and lead our aggression and line speed. He battered your forward pack defensively plenty of times but as with Knowles, you can overlook what he’s bringing if he’s not in your side.

As for Smithies, he’s a bit different to Knowles, certainly in terms of how he’s being asked to play anyway but he’s turning in to a high quality player. It’ll be tough for him to crack an England place with Knowles and now Radley in there but he’ll come close if he continues his development.
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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:52 pm  
NickyKiss wrote:
I rate Knowles massively and you guys have a similar battle we had with some opposition regarding Micky Mac on your hands.There’s no stats for somebody playing a game at frantic pace, showing aggression, the force they hit with and the way they inspire those around them and so on. If you showed somebody Knowles stats and you didn’t know the player, you’d go ‘he’s not all that’ but he is. I do recall plenty of Saints fans bashing Micky Mac (and I’ve seen some still doing the same recently) but he was huge for us and lead our aggression and line speed. He battered your forward pack defensively plenty of times but as with Knowles, you can overlook what he’s bringing if he’s not in your side.

As for Smithies, he’s a bit different to Knowles, certainly in terms of how he’s being asked to play anyway but he’s turning in to a high quality player. It’ll be tough for him to crack an England place with Knowles and now Radley in there but he’ll come close if he continues his development.


I don't think anyone ever duobted MM's effectiveness in defence (and he can cross the line in recknless and cynical ways that Knowles does not) but I was always relatively happy to see him in the side as I thought he was a limited ball player in a key pivot position. More intimidating than, say, Roby but Roby had much more to his game. I think he is a bot one dimensional but there is no doubting he defends aggressively and intimidates people.

You're right - we have some very good options in the England team. It's a real shame Dodd got injured as I think Welsby, Lomax, Dodd at 1/6/7 could have been a big plus for England.

I'm very interested to see how Wane goes.
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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:00 pm  
FearTheVee wrote:
I don't think anyone ever duobted MM's effectiveness in defence (and he can cross the line in recknless and cynical ways that Knowles does not) but I was always relatively happy to see him in the side as I thought he was a limited ball player in a key pivot position. More intimidating than, say, Roby but Roby had much more to his game. I think he is a bot one dimensional but there is no doubting he defends aggressively and intimidates people.

You're right - we have some very good options in the England team. It's a real shame Dodd got injured as I think Welsby, Lomax, Dodd at 1/6/7 could have been a big plus for England.

I'm very interested to see how Wane goes.


Tomkins would walk in over all three imo. Certainly a conversation to be had about Welsby going in at 1 and Sam at 6 tho.
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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:11 pm  
Tomkins will start (and should start) and be captain I’d imagine. If Lomax is fit for the World Cup I’d pair him and Williams and use Welsby from the bench. I’d have no issue with swapping Williams and Welsby around mind or even putting Tomkins up in to the halves if needed (but Wane won’t do that IMO).
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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:14 pm  
Honestly I think Weslby has been miiiiiiiiles better than Tomkins this season. Sam has been quite poor at times (and I really rate him).

I can't think of any real justification for people having Williams ahead of Welsby at 6 either other than the fact he's played in the NRL.
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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:21 pm  
FearTheVee wrote:
Honestly I think Weslby has been miiiiiiiiles better than Tomkins this season. Sam has been quite poor at times (and I really rate him).

I can't think of any real justification for people having Williams ahead of Welsby at 6 either other than the fact he's played in the NRL.


Quite possibly, but i don't think enough stock, or weighting is given to not swapping and changing the side. I look at QLD and even Aus and how they don't bend to the hype of "the new guy" and how that just seems to work Vs swapping around all the time.

You're right about Williams tho. Shouldn't be near the side.
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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:26 pm  
FearTheVee wrote:
Honestly I think Weslby has been miiiiiiiiles better than Tomkins this season. Sam has been quite poor at times (and I really rate him).

I can't think of any real justification for people having Williams ahead of Welsby at 6 either other than the fact he's played in the NRL.


Tomkins experience will be vital IMO. Form goes up and down for lots of players and it’s been a reasonably tough season for Catalans as a whole but we’ll need all the experienced leaders we can get now we’re minus Lockers, Roby, Sam Burgess, Graham etc.

Welsby walks a spot in the 17, it just depends where you put him. I’d be more than happy with him and the Lomax in the halves and Williams covering 6,7 and 9 from the bench. I’m excited to see what young, aggressive and even cocky players like Welsby and Newman can do. They don’t care who the opposition is and will compete for every scrap. That’s one reason why Sam Tomkins is so important IMO. He is the ultimate competitor and those young boys will follow him.
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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:26 pm  
IMO Welsby and Lomax are the two most talented English players in SL.

When I see England teams named with neither of them in the starting XIII I genuinely can't believe what I'm reading.

But sport is all about opinions I suppose.
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