Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:13 am  

Cruncher wrote:

I don't have a problem with your view on the way the club is handling this. I think they've got it wrong. The Sam saga overshadowed the Wembley win and is now in danger of overshadowing the play-offs.

While, like you, I suspect it is to do with the club trying to get all deals tied up so they can announce them in one go, I'm not sure this is the worst reason in the world, though I do think it's becoming counterproductive. It could also be that Sam's departure is only one part of a much larger and more complex deal, which has taken time to set up. I simply don't know, and neither does anyone else on our side of the fence.

But all that, I think, is the sideline. A much bigger concern to me is that Sam has been allowed to leave at all. It's very, very disappointing, but I think there is a lot of hot air being spouted by certain fans who simply don't want the player to be at fault (I'm not accusing you of that, by the way). Past experience suggests this is often not the case. Even in the distant past, the likes of Hanley and Andy Gregory had periods of fall-out with the club, drew support from the fans, and then it turned out it was half a dozen of one and six of the other (Graham Lowe was ready to go home half way through the 87/88 season because fans were giving him so much crap over the Hanley affair - and how disastrous for Wigan would that would have been?). We've seen a recent plethora of players ducking out of their contracts. Okay, I think the club has sometimes been weak allowing this to happen - there comes a line when you have to call one of these guys' bluff, even if that means you have a disgruntled player on your hands. But the impetus has often come from the player or his agent.

I don't see why the Sam situation should be any different (when all the evidence suggests that the real money and challenge now lies in Aus, and that we are minnows in every sense of the word). This idea that it's all down to IL - because he wants to pocket a big transfer fee - makes no sense to me. Of course, until the club come out and say otherwise, we won't know one way or the other - though even then, I suspect, some people will continue to trot out the same line, and just accuse IL and co of lying.

As for Sam, I'll cheer him to the end. It's his career and his choice. Rightly or wrongly, there will always be people who'll feel betrayed, but they'd be better turning their fire on the RFL. They are the ones who have allowed the British game to dwindle to such insignificance that now no athlete with serious world-class ambitions would consider spending his entire career here.

Great post.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:35 am  

Let's get real here guys, the landscape for British RL and Wigan has changed and we have to accept that Sam's departure is a simple case of market forces and something we will have to get used to. I don't blame him, Ian Lenegan or anyone else. When RU turned pro and the NRL began to actively target British talent, we were always going to struggle to hold on to our best players.

In the Graham Lowe era, Wigan could afford to allow Gregory and Hanley to go on the transfer list and threaten to break their contracts safe in the knowledge that there was nowhere else for them to realistically go. No one in Britain could afford them, Australia wasn't a realistic option and Union was an amateur game that then banned anyone who had played RL. In terms of the sport they had chosen, playing for Wigan was pretty much the peak of their achievements and earning potential.

Now, if you are an outstanding talent-like Sam-the strength of the pound means you can earn far more in the NRL whilst at the same time enjoying an enviable lifestyle and the experience of playing in a superb competition in a country that largely treats your sport as a major national pastime and if that doesn't grab you, you can hang around on the wing in Rugby Union, swallow dive in for the odd try when you can understand what's going on and become a national figure earning a basic salary of £300,000.

Luckily we keep churning out the local talent but I'm afraid we're going to have to get used to the pattern of losing our biggest crowd pleasers every few years

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:11 pm  

Any news on Tom Briscoe's future? Love to see him at Wigan to replace Pat. Really don't wanna see him at Leeds,
a backline of:

Hardaker
Hall Moon Watkins Briscoe

looks very good.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:17 pm  

Cruncher wrote:

I don't have a problem with your view on the way the club is handling this. I think they've got it wrong. The Sam saga overshadowed the Wembley win and is now in danger of overshadowing the play-offs.

While, like you, I suspect it is to do with the club trying to get all deals tied up so they can announce them in one go, I'm not sure this is the worst reason in the world, though I do think it's becoming counterproductive. It could also be that Sam's departure is only one part of a much larger and more complex deal, which has taken time to set up. I simply don't know, and neither does anyone else on our side of the fence.

But all that, I think, is the sideline. A much bigger concern to me is that Sam has been allowed to leave at all. It's very, very disappointing, but I think there is a lot of hot air being spouted by certain fans who simply don't want the player to be at fault (I'm not accusing you of that, by the way). Past experience suggests this is often not the case. Even in the distant past, the likes of Hanley and Andy Gregory had periods of fall-out with the club, drew support from the fans, and then it turned out it was half a dozen of one and six of the other (Graham Lowe was ready to go home half way through the 87/88 season because fans were giving him so much crap over the Hanley affair - and how disastrous for Wigan would that would have been?). We've seen a recent plethora of players ducking out of their contracts. Okay, I think the club has sometimes been weak allowing this to happen - there comes a line when you have to call one of these guys' bluff, even if that means you have a disgruntled player on your hands. But the impetus has often come from the player or his agent.

I don't see why the Sam situation should be any different (when all the evidence suggests that the real money and challenge now lies in Aus, and that we are minnows in every sense of the word). This idea that it's all down to IL - because he wants to pocket a big transfer fee - makes no sense to me. Of course, until the club come out and say otherwise, we won't know one way or the other - though even then, I suspect, some people will continue to trot out the same line, and just accuse IL and co of lying.

As for Sam, I'll cheer him to the end. It's his career and his choice. Rightly or wrongly, there will always be people who'll feel betrayed, but they'd be better turning their fire on the RFL. They are the ones who have allowed the British game to dwindle to such insignificance that now no athlete with serious world-class ambitions would consider spending his entire career here.

So you don't think if he had announced he was leaving, the final would have been overshadowed even more because I do. The press would have only been reporting on it being his last CC final. I think he has been very respectful to Wigan by keeping quiet and not putting all the focus on him leaving

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:29 pm  

bazdev wrote:

So you don't think if he had announced he was leaving, the final would have been overshadowed even more because I do. The press would have only been reporting on it being his last CC final. I think he has been very respectful to Wigan by keeping quiet and not putting all the focus on him leaving

However it was done, I doubt this could be anything other than a very bitter pill for the Wigan fans to swallow - either with the info leaked, with a big announcement, or with something in between.

That's why I said the bigger deal for me is the event itself rather than the way the club handles it. I'm not sure there could be any painless way to deliver bad news of this magnitude.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:45 pm  

Cruncher wrote:

I don't have a problem with your view on the way the club is handling this. I think they've got it wrong. The Sam saga overshadowed the Wembley win and is now in danger of overshadowing the play-offs.

While, like you, I suspect it is to do with the club trying to get all deals tied up so they can announce them in one go, I'm not sure this is the worst reason in the world, though I do think it's becoming counterproductive. It could also be that Sam's departure is only one part of a much larger and more complex deal, which has taken time to set up. I simply don't know, and neither does anyone else on our side of the fence.

But all that, I think, is the sideline. A much bigger concern to me is that Sam has been allowed to leave at all. It's very, very disappointing, but I think there is a lot of hot air being spouted by certain fans who simply don't want the player to be at fault (I'm not accusing you of that, by the way). Past experience suggests this is often not the case. Even in the distant past, the likes of Hanley and Andy Gregory had periods of fall-out with the club, drew support from the fans, and then it turned out it was half a dozen of one and six of the other (Graham Lowe was ready to go home half way through the 87/88 season because fans were giving him so much crap over the Hanley affair - and how disastrous for Wigan would that would have been?). We've seen a recent plethora of players ducking out of their contracts. Okay, I think the club has sometimes been weak allowing this to happen - there comes a line when you have to call one of these guys' bluff, even if that means you have a disgruntled player on your hands. But the impetus has often come from the player or his agent.

I don't see why the Sam situation should be any different (when all the evidence suggests that the real money and challenge now lies in Aus, and that we are minnows in every sense of the word). This idea that it's all down to IL - because he wants to pocket a big transfer fee - makes no sense to me. Of course, until the club come out and say otherwise, we won't know one way or the other - though even then, I suspect, some people will continue to trot out the same line, and just accuse IL and co of lying.

As for Sam, I'll cheer him to the end. It's his career and his choice. Rightly or wrongly, there will always be people who'll feel betrayed, but they'd be better turning their fire on the RFL. They are the ones who have allowed the British game to dwindle to such insignificance that now no athlete with serious world-class ambitions would consider spending his entire career here.

I agree with a lot of what your saying and a summary of my feelings on the issue would be-

-He should have been held to this 3 year agreement.

- I feel Lenagan is happy to cash in now though as he'll get more money.

- Tomkins does want to go but I see no evidence Lenagan has even tried to stop him.

- It should have been announced sooner so everyone could move on but the clubs blocked it until they could sort out sweetners to soften the blow.

I don't really have any issues with Tomkins wanting a new challenge but he shouldn't have signed that three year clause and Lenagan shouldn't be allowing him to break it. I can understand people being frustrated with Tomkins for going but not for being annoyed with him for it not being confirmed. That's the major difference I suppose.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:37 pm  

On the other hand -

Suppose IL/Wigan had announced Sam was leaving, explained all back in April/May time with no mention of any replacement.
Given that we do now, in September, seem to have signed Matty Bowen that would have meant the club going from the announcement to now without a replacement. If we feel frustrated and annoyed now its nothing like it would have been if we'd no replacement for Sam, our best player in a generation, for around 5 months.
This forum and others would have been in meltdown saying we'd the most incompetent owner and b.o.d. in the club's history. The WEP would have been able to run a full issue of complaint letters from disgruntled fans.

I'm as frustrated with what's happened as anyone but if Sam got an offer he couldn't refuse and told IL he wanted to take up a once in a playing lifetime opportunity I don't see what option IL had. If Sam had his head turned by NZW with the NRL etc Wigan were always in an impossible position.

The announcement will come some time soon I'd expect with the bad news of Sam leaving and the good news of his replacement (Bowen) and other players
re-signing. That's how the club works these days, along with using up more silver polish than for decades.
If Sam is to leave then I do think Matty Bowen is just about the best replacement we could get from what's available.

Not a great situation but I don't see how doing it differently would have brought a better outlook from us fans.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:56 am  

Guerrier wrote:

Great post.

Agreed.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:20 am  

Tom briscoe seems almost certain to go to leed. Instead we are getting sarginson and bloody Tony Club.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:34 pm  

In addition to the players already mentioned I still expect more signings including Bowen in that.

We must have some serious spending power.

Nobody saw Pettybourne coming and I expect one or two surprises yet...