Re: Toulouse game. : Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:37 pm  

I have to say while not having seen the full toulouse game one are we do need to improve on is our line speed in defence. We allow the opposition forwards to get on too much of a roll when we should be shutting them down before they get going as Saints do.

Re: Toulouse game. : Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:14 pm  

Big Steve wrote:

I have to say while not having seen the full toulouse game one are we do need to improve on is our line speed in defence. We allow the opposition forwards to get on too much of a roll when we should be shutting them down before they get going as Saints do.

I’m torn on this. It’s something I’ve been sat thinking about at times this season and all roads lead back to thinking how we close that gap to Saints. Yes their line speed is unbelievable and I wonder if we can try and replicate that but I keep coming back to the same point- we will need beat them at that game when we play them. To play a game of us meeting fire with fire and flying off the line, we’ll have to accept it’s likely to be decided through the middle of the field and we’ll be using an awful lot of energy in doing that. Are we good enough to beat them through the middle? Not a chance IMO.

I’m not saying we can’t up it by the way but to replicate it, you need to go all in on it, week in, week out and accept that we’re unlikely to see sparkling attacking rugby (as Saints fans don’t). I think we just need to find our style, our identity and way of doing things and in fairness to Peet, I think he is trying to do that. It’s been a positive start but with plenty to work on. We can certainly put more energy in to defence but I’m just hoping it’s a time and place thing and when the time calls for it, we’ll see an uplift in intensity defensively. We’ll need to see it on Saturday and I think we will but we need a balance between good defensive intent and not getting sucked in to a forwards battle. Against Catalans and in particular Saints, we’re going to need to reserve plenty of energy for when we have the ball and try and run them and keep turning them.

Re: Toulouse game. : Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:35 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

I wasn't sure about the 40:20 and couldn't see if he was Lax in stopping it or if the kick was awkward/misjudged etc.
The Harry Smith & Miski criticism seems to have emanated from the commentary as 99% of people at that time couldn't view it for themselves, and thus the Myth perpetuates.

I don't & haven't listened to Joe Mills & Bilko a lot (no more than couple of times inc. Saturday) so not best placed to assess and my only observation is I think they're a good pair. Mills provides the enthusiasm and dynamic whilst Bilko does a good seconds job and comes in with good observations & statistical stuff
I would say that any commentator who is associated to their own club though needs to understand the situation a little differently than a professional commentator as a neutral say, in that they are viewing those players week in week out, serving their commentary in the main to one set of supporters and their Bias/observations etc. can magnify issues either favourably or negatively dependant on how the commentator views situations i.e. Last week you would think Miski & Smith were 99% responsible for that result - Yet other players escape criticism when for example it suits the commentator (Understandably) to magnify the plus points of players such as Field & Mago & KPP for example for entertainment purposes and in turn they escape criticism sometimes when they should get it.

I said at Weekend and have used this analogy before, we were in a similar position in Maguire's first season, winning 20 nil at Bradford and losing 22-20
At the time coming off I said to my mate who was fuming - The one positive was that the following week (Hull at Home - Who had a Very strong team with a Very Big & Strong pack) we would get an answer to a very important question.
Are we as good as we think we are? Was the Bradford game a Blip? or was the first 4 weeks of the season the Blip and we weren't as good as we thought we were.

Whilst I don't think this is exactly the same I get the same feeling
Were the first 3 weeks the Team/Us riding a bit of a Good feeling wave etc. and over hyping/exaggerating our abilities and chances?
Or, was it a blip and we got Lax, which in turn will give us the kick up the backside we need and remind us that we need to be 100% in regards to attitude and effort week in week out

Obviously I'm hoping it's the latter - But either way this is all part and parcel of the journey and what makes us intrigued by the sport
If the Recipe for success was stagnant and predictable there would be little to ponder over and discuss and everyone would be doing things the same way

Saturday was Peets/New Coaching structure & players first little Bump - How will they react?

Can't wait to go again Saturday and find out
Putting my neck on the block here - But last year I predicted a massive good hiding at Catalans as I could tell 7/7 or not we were woeful
This year I think the Effort/Structure/Coaching etc. is much improved and we'll give it a good go & win or lose (Which can always happen at Catalans even when they aren't as good a team as they are now)

Hope you are right with the Bradford analogy.

During and after the game I was bitterly disappointed with the performance.
It was like being in a bad dream thinking that Lam was still head coach.

The day after I got to thinking what was good about the performance other than the start and the finish.
A bit of a struggle to be positive but then I thought we didn’t panic and we kept playing rugby. Not always great rugby but we didn’t fall back into one man rugby which I think we owe to the new coaching structure.

I do think that Field’s pace has covered over some cracks which for me is our lack of speed without the ball, slow ptb and I don’t think that squad is particularly well balanced with too many versatile players and not enough quality experts in several positions notably centres, wings and to a lesser degree the backrow. We still lack that top class prop (could be Mago but he’s got to step up much more for me on a regular basis to be even considered a very good prop) who can do long minutes.

What we have got is better structure and more self believe which if we sprinkle in sublime talent of Field, KPP and hopefully Mago we can give most teams a good game and a good base to build on.
I’m quietly confident of a big improvement against Catalan.

Agree with you re Bilko and Joe Mills. I think they compliment each other but Joe at times can go a bit ott.

I’ve got a feeling our intensity on Saturday will be several times higher than versus Toulouse.

Re: Toulouse game. : Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:29 pm  

add French to that also will add a bit of dynamic play hopefully

Re: Toulouse game. : Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:26 pm  

I also think Havard with the solid work of Ellis and with Singleton, Smithies and Byrne improved will add a lot over the season once back into this team. Mago gives us that X factor impact into that equation. How good are we, well definitely better to watch than last season but with a few tests to pass. I think at season start we would all of took what we have seen as a huge positive.

Re: Toulouse game. : Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:40 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

I’m torn on this. It’s something I’ve been sat thinking about at times this season and all roads lead back to thinking how we close that gap to Saints. Yes their line speed is unbelievable and I wonder if we can try and replicate that but I keep coming back to the same point- we will need beat them at that game when we play them. To play a game of us meeting fire with fire and flying off the line, we’ll have to accept it’s likely to be decided through the middle of the field and we’ll be using an awful lot of energy in doing that. Are we good enough to beat them through the middle? Not a chance IMO.

I’m not saying we can’t up it by the way but to replicate it, you need to go all in on it, week in, week out and accept that we’re unlikely to see sparkling attacking rugby (as Saints fans don’t). I think we just need to find our style, our identity and way of doing things and in fairness to Peet, I think he is trying to do that. It’s been a positive start but with plenty to work on. We can certainly put more energy in to defence but I’m just hoping it’s a time and place thing and when the time calls for it, we’ll see an uplift in intensity defensively. We’ll need to see it on Saturday and I think we will but we need a balance between good defensive intent and not getting sucked in to a forwards battle. Against Catalans and in particular Saints, we’re going to need to reserve plenty of energy for when we have the ball and try and run them and keep turning them.

I don’t want to derail the thread so apologies. However not sure where you are getting this idea (again) of Saints fans not being happy with our attack?

42 points away from home last Friday, we looked sublime. Our left edge of Matuatia, Percival and Makinson looking superb. Dodd is showing his class week on week now too. Let’s not forget we have a brand new spine this season, our first choice left winger hasn’t played yet, we’ve had brand new centre/wing combinations on the right side most games and Makinson has played on the left rather than the right all season.

Wakefield is the only real game so far that we didn’t get going and stuttered a little. Not sure what more you want us to do? Have you seen our points difference?

Re: Toulouse game. : Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:11 am  

Stu M wrote:

I don’t want to derail the thread so apologies. However not sure where you are getting this idea (again) of Saints fans not being happy with our attack?

42 points away from home last Friday, we looked sublime. Our left edge of Matuatia, Percival and Makinson looking superb. Dodd is showing his class week on week now too. Let’s not forget we have a brand new spine this season, our first choice left winger hasn’t played yet, we’ve had brand new centre/wing combinations on the right side most games and Makinson has played on the left rather than the right all season.

Wakefield is the only real game so far that we didn’t get going and stuttered a little. Not sure what more you want us to do? Have you seen our points difference?

I’ll give you HKR, I didn’t see it, so can’t comment but I’ve seen your other three games and the attack functioned as a result of your defence. Grinding the opposition down and picking them off in their 20. It isn’t traditional attacking rugby (that Saints are famed for) by any stretch (maybe at HKR it was try’s from all over the field, 60,70,80 metres, I don’t know).

We’ve had great points differences in the past and been much the same in terms of a style of play. You score your points through your defence IMO and one or two individuals bring a bit of magic. In terms of my post, I’m saying for us to replicate that is pretty much impossible. Saints clearly put so much time and energy in to practicing that, as well as Woolf coming up with his ‘energy saving’ tactics.

Re: Toulouse game. : Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:21 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

I’ll give you HKR, I didn’t see it, so can’t comment but I’ve seen your other three games and the attack functioned as a result of your defence. Grinding the opposition down and picking them off in their 20. It isn’t traditional attacking rugby (that Saints are famed for) by any stretch (maybe at HKR it was try’s from all over the field, 60,70,80 metres, I don’t know).

We’ve had great points differences in the past and been much the same in terms of a style of play. You score your points through your defence IMO and one or two individuals bring a bit of magic. In terms of my post, I’m saying for us to replicate that is pretty much impossible. Saints clearly put so much time and energy in to practicing that, as well as Woolf coming up with his ‘energy saving’ tactics.

I actually think that you could cause us some real problems this season when we play. Any team with genuine pace could (if utilised correctly) get around our linespeed.

Wakefield caused us a whole host of problems, they kicked early, went wide early in the tackle count and were genuinely inventive and different. I can’t recall a team making as many line breaks and half breaks against us for a long time. We scrambled superbly otherwise they would have posted a few points against us.

Field in particular in broken field will definitely cause us problems. I agree with you that to take us on down the middle would be foolish.

I’m really looking forward to Saturdays game. If Wigan win (or even lose by a close score) I’ll hold my hands up and say they are a real threat this season. Toulouse game apart (and parts of the Hudds game) they’ve looked good this season so Saturdays game is a good barometer of where they are.

It will be really interesting to see how your pack goes against Catalans. We nullified them for the first game however we’ve got our own great pack anyway so it was fighting fire with fire.

Re: Toulouse game. : Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:30 am  

Stu M wrote:

I actually think that you could cause us some real problems this season when we play. Any team with genuine pace could (if utilised correctly) get around our linespeed.

Wakefield caused us a whole host of problems, they kicked early, went wide early in the tackle count and were genuinely inventive and different. I can’t recall a team making as many line breaks and half breaks against us for a long time. We scrambled superbly otherwise they would have posted a few points against us.

Field in particular in broken field will definitely cause us problems. I agree with you that to take us on down the middle would be foolish.

I’m really looking forward to Saturdays game. If Wigan win (or even lose by a close score) I’ll hold my hands up and say they are a real threat this season. Toulouse game apart (and parts of the Hudds game) they’ve looked good this season so Saturdays game is a good barometer of where they are.

It will be really interesting to see how your pack goes against Catalans. We nullified them for the first game however we’ve got our own great pack anyway so it was fighting fire with fire.

We’re a work in progress I think. I fancy that we can maybe take Catalans on at the minute and go close but there’s still work to do before we face (and try to beat) Saints. I don’t think we’ll be in the trophies this season but you never know. People are just enjoying seeing a bit more threat and attacking intent. When we do meet Saints we’ll need to push things and be inventive but it could make for a good game.

Re: Toulouse game. : Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:44 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

I’m torn on this. It’s something I’ve been sat thinking about at times this season and all roads lead back to thinking how we close that gap to Saints. Yes their line speed is unbelievable and I wonder if we can try and replicate that but I keep coming back to the same point- we will need beat them at that game when we play them. To play a game of us meeting fire with fire and flying off the line, we’ll have to accept it’s likely to be decided through the middle of the field and we’ll be using an awful lot of energy in doing that. Are we good enough to beat them through the middle? Not a chance IMO.

I agree trying to 100% replicate what they do isn't the answer, but we need to look at how we up our intensity at key times and positions on the field and find teh right balance. Especially against Saints you need to stop them coming out of their half as easily in the first 3-4 carries.

A good kicking game (it's been better this season but still more improvement needed) exploiting our pace and increased offloading in attack which we seem to be doing will be a huge improvement on last years rugby. We need to put more doubt into a quick line speeds defence and make it harder for them to rush and close the ball players down.