Re: What now? : Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:32 pm  

It’s a shame Ellis has got himself banned because it sounds like Havard could be back this week or next and you then have the option of moving Ellis to 13 and letting him play longer minutes. He looks capable of that and it’s something I’d look at longer term.

In the short term Smithies should certainly be starting ahead of Isa based on this seasons showings. I don’t know if Isa has gone too far in reigning himself in due to last season’s disciplinary issues but it’s been such a meek start for him at loose forward and that is surprising. I really expected him to revel in the opportunity and to lead a charge for us but it’s been anything but.

Re: What now? : Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:49 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

It’s a shame Ellis has got himself banned because it sounds like Havard could be back this week or next and you then have the option of moving Ellis to 13 and letting him play longer minutes. He looks capable of that and it’s something I’d look at longer term.

In the short term Smithies should certainly be starting ahead of Isa based on this seasons showings. I don’t know if Isa has gone too far in reigning himself in due to last season’s disciplinary issues but it’s been such a meek start for him at loose forward and that is surprising. I really expected him to revel in the opportunity and to lead a charge for us but it’s been anything but.

I’d go with Farrell Smithies and KPP as the backrow when Thornley is back. It won’t happen but more power than the current chosen 3 for the backrow.
Our front row is still suspect and a lightweight of a backrow of 3 guys at 14 stone doesn’t cut it.
Hopefully Harvard is back on Thursday otherwise Partington will be in the 17.

French looks grossly overweight so can’t see him in the 17 for a good few weeks. Happy to wait for the lad as he is a quality player and when drier conditions come along he will be ready and waiting for us to kick on.

A good chance for some character and a bit stoicism on Thursday. Let’s hope we have the lads with those characteristics to bounce back from a bottom 4 performance in the last 2 weeks.

Off field things appear to have improved significantly unfortunately on field lack of management over the previous 3 years means we have a few diamonds but multiple lack of quality across the majority of the starting 13.

I never expected any trophies this season or even for a year or two but I want commitment and a bit of “dog” in the ensuing years. Hopefully the Cas game we will see a turnaround from 2 weeks of poor delivery and a significant step up in our defence which has been poor in the extreme so far this season.

The general tempo has got to improve. We are slow, slow slow, slow. This seems to be deliberate but until this changes every game will be a struggle and potentially a defeat. Not panicking but a touch of realism now suggests we are nowhere near a really competitive team and somewhere between 4th and 8 th is a realistic outlook for this season.

A hard slog won’t do us any harm and will sort out which lads are here for the long haul.

Re: What now? : Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:48 am  

It was an odd game - Wigan just didn't give themselves a prayer with all the errors in really difficult conditions.

I'm not sure it tells us all that much about either team to be honest gven the nature of the tries gifted, other than Catalans have a better pack than Wigan but that shouldn't be news to anyone.

Re: What now? : Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:58 am  

FearTheVee wrote:

It was an odd game - Wigan just didn't give themselves a prayer with all the errors in really difficult conditions.

I'm not sure it tells us all that much about either team to be honest gven the nature of the tries gifted, other than Catalans have a better pack than Wigan but that shouldn't be news to anyone.

I think it's as simple as a dry weather team playing wet weather rugby especially badly. We're clearly a side that relies on pace and offloads and that rarely, if ever, goes well in poor conditions. Put Havard (for more grunt upfront) and, particularly, French into the team and add in the drier weather and we'll be fine.

Of greater concern is the lack of discipline. Last year it was the younger players who were at fault and that, to some extent, was forgivable given the circumstances. This year, including in the wins, it's been senior players who have been the main offenders. That's simply not good enough. We won't win tight games against better teams with poor discipline. It needs sorting and pronto.

Re: What now? : Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:56 am  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

I’d go with Farrell Smithies and KPP as the backrow when Thornley is back. It won’t happen but more power than the current chosen 3 for the backrow.
Our front row is still suspect and a lightweight of a backrow of 3 guys at 14 stone doesn’t cut it.
Hopefully Harvard is back on Thursday otherwise Partington will be in the 17.

French looks grossly overweight so can’t see him in the 17 for a good few weeks. Happy to wait for the lad as he is a quality player and when drier conditions come along he will be ready and waiting for us to kick on.

A good chance for some character and a bit stoicism on Thursday. Let’s hope we have the lads with those characteristics to bounce back from a bottom 4 performance in the last 2 weeks.

Off field things appear to have improved significantly unfortunately on field lack of management over the previous 3 years means we have a few diamonds but multiple lack of quality across the majority of the starting 13.

I never expected any trophies this season or even for a year or two but I want commitment and a bit of “dog” in the ensuing years. Hopefully the Cas game we will see a turnaround from 2 weeks of poor delivery and a significant step up in our defence which has been poor in the extreme so far this season.

The general tempo has got to improve. We are slow, slow slow, slow. This seems to be deliberate but until this changes every game will be a struggle and potentially a defeat. Not panicking but a touch of realism now suggests we are nowhere near a really competitive team and somewhere between 4th and 8 th is a realistic outlook for this season.

A hard slog won’t do us any harm and will sort out which lads are here for the long haul.

We'll finish in the top 4 but that won't be any great achievement with the level of quality and consistency in SL atm. Agreed on French and our slow tempo - the biggest contributor to that is our forwards hardly ever winning the ruck. I remember one rare occasion in the 2nd half when one of our forwards won the collision, Powell went on a dummy half scoot and we finally had some momentum. The problem is that happens for us once in a blue moon whereas for Saints and Catalans it happens every other ruck.

Re: What now? : Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:00 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I think it's as simple as a dry weather team playing wet weather rugby especially badly. We're clearly a side that relies on pace and offloads and that rarely, if ever, goes well in poor conditions. Put Havard (for more grunt upfront) and, particularly, French into the team and add in the drier weather and we'll be fine.

Of greater concern is the lack of discipline. Last year it was the younger players who were at fault and that, to some extent, was forgivable given the circumstances. This year, including in the wins, it's been senior players who have been the main offenders. That's simply not good enough. We won't win tight games against better teams with poor discipline. It needs sorting and pronto.

I’m not overly surprised with our last 2 or even 3 performances but what has disappointed me has been how slow defensively we are plus we are too slow at ptb. I think the lack of tempo puts us on the back foot which in turn leads to errors which then leads to indiscipline.

Not sure if a short turnaround will be good or bad for us this week. I just hope our heads don’t drop because we are very much improved on last season and I think most fans want improvement in standards and attack,which I think although the last 2 games we have been poor, is being delivered.

As you say we will be a lot better come spring and summer when we can play to our strengths. We’ve got some tough games coming up against teams with better packs and I can feel it in my water that we will get a tough draw in the CC so the coaching staff need to get back to some basics over the next few training sessions.
I’ve got a feeling we will draw Leyth away or even worse Saints.

Re: What now? : Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:10 pm  

I'm really not sure our pack is a big problem. It's not great but it seems a lot better than the last few years. Off the top of my head Mago, Byrne and Ellis all had good carries where we got on the front foot.

For me it was all about the errors and Catalans playing the conditions better. They took advantage of position we gifted them and we built no pressure.

People criticised the starting front row against Leeds but that was a similar story. Knock ons and forward passes in our own half put them on the front foot, I don't think it was like last year when we couldn't make yards no matter what we did.

We've started this year with a much more entertaining attacking style but it seems like it's come with the downside of being more risky and prone to errors.

Hopefully they can iron this out. I don't think we need to overreact with big changes but it does seem like we have a long way to go to be a threat to Saints.

If we can put in more performances like the Leeds one, with errors but great tries, I'll take that for now.

Re: What now? : Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:13 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I think it's as simple as a dry weather team playing wet weather rugby especially badly. We're clearly a side that relies on pace and offloads and that rarely, if ever, goes well in poor conditions. Put Havard (for more grunt upfront) and, particularly, French into the team and add in the drier weather and we'll be fine.

Of greater concern is the lack of discipline. Last year it was the younger players who were at fault and that, to some extent, was forgivable given the circumstances. This year, including in the wins, it's been senior players who have been the main offenders. That's simply not good enough. We won't win tight games against better teams with poor discipline. It needs sorting and pronto.

I don't think discipline in the main has been a problem until Saturday, certainly not in terms of penalty counts, sin binning's, bans etc but there were signs on Saturday that the frustrations shown last year by somebody like Isa could rear up again when we're put in a poor spot. It's something to keep an eye on for sure but my bigger worry is the absolute basic and lazy errors we're making. There have been far too many cold drops of the ball, lazy play the balls, forward passes and poor attempts at defending kicks. I don't know if we lack skill as a team or concentration but whichever one it is, there needs to be a lot of work put in to improve. A team that wants to move the ball and play open rugby needs to be able to do the basics to a really high level. I can live with the odd offload going wrong, the odd lost ball in contact here and there but I can't live with the amount of errors being made under no pressure or people not concentrating playing the ball.

Re: What now? : Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:18 pm  

MadDogg wrote:

We'll finish in the top 4 but that won't be any great achievement with the level of quality and consistency in SL atm. Agreed on French and our slow tempo - the biggest contributor to that is our forwards hardly ever winning the ruck. I remember one rare occasion in the 2nd half when one of our forwards won the collision, Powell went on a dummy half scoot and we finally had some momentum. The problem is that happens for us once in a blue moon whereas for Saints and Catalans it happens every other ruck.

Saints are obviously the standout team followed by Catalan with rest very much in their wake.
Wire and Leeds are like us. A few decent players but not enough quality.
Not sure on the depth of the Huddersfield squad but won’t surprise me if they make the top 3 or 4.
Hull could be anything and KR will keep plugging away.

Our front row isn’t fixed and a lightweight backrow just compound’s the issue for me. Will be interesting to see what the 17 are on Thursday. Hopefully a few dry days will help preparation and on match day.

Re: What now? : Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:57 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I don't think discipline in the main has been a problem until Saturday, certainly not in terms of penalty counts, sin binning's, bans etc but there were signs on Saturday that the frustrations shown last year by somebody like Isa could rear up again when we're put in a poor spot. It's something to keep an eye on for sure but my bigger worry is the absolute basic and lazy errors we're making. There have been far too many cold drops of the ball, lazy play the balls, forward passes and poor attempts at defending kicks. I don't know if we lack skill as a team or concentration but whichever one it is, there needs to be a lot of work put in to improve. A team that wants to move the ball and play open rugby needs to be able to do the basics to a really high level. I can live with the odd offload going wrong, the odd lost ball in contact here and there but I can't live with the amount of errors being made under no pressure or people not concentrating playing the ball.

Sorry NK, I probably didn't make myself clear there. By discipline I meant both with and without the ball. Not just penalties but, as you say, cold drops and errors, particularly early in the tackle count. We've been awful, even in victory, in relieving pressure on the opposition. It's actually testament to our improved attack that it hasn't hurt us more.

It came to a head over in France where most of our problems in Toulouse were caused by our inability to retain possession and build pressure and the same faults were punished by Catalans as they probably should have been by Toulouse too. The senior team leaders need to step up here and start to lead by example.

I'm not one for throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We are significantly improved on last year and this will only improve (injuries notwithstanding) as the weather improves and we can play to our strengths. I don't think many will live with our pace on the firmer grounds providing we can get on the front foot. High completion rate and low error/penalty counts are an absolute prerequisite for this.