Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Jun 24, 2024 12:16 pm  

It'll be interesting in a couple of weeks, I've no doubt Saints will be up for it and if we once again struggle to break them down then questions might be asked especially as the blue print for beating them is pretty well known by now.
I'm not saying chuck it around from minute one but you have to go after their 3/4 line especially Hurrell, he's back to what he was at the end of his Leeds spell, an absolute oil tanker and with Makinson out they've got nothing on either wing to worry about especially as PW won't give the one lad with pace they've got, Ritson, a run for love nor money.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Jun 24, 2024 12:48 pm  

At this rate Roby will be dusting his boots off

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:35 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

Just on the players coming back; I've already covered my thoughts on a few in my answer to NK but you mention a couple others above so I'll address those.

Most Saints fans have thought Lomax has been a cause of their poor attacking form and, until yesterday at least, most have noted that they're actually better with Mbye in the halves. Mbye wouldn't get close to our team. He wouldn't be Hooker over O'Neil, interchange Hooker over Leeming or half over Smith or French. The best he could hope for would be back up half/Hooker instead of Hampshire. Lomax hasn't been as good as Mbye this year. Let that sink in a minute. I'm not sure how his return will suddenly galvanise them into something they aren't already. It could even make them worse again.

Whitely doesn't make the team if everyone is fit. He may take a bench spot which would be better than the dead wood that currently inhabit them. It's not going to win them a title though.

Makinson is better than Bennison so that will improve them. I have personal knowledge of plantar fasciitis though and there's no guarantees regarding his return to fitness. He could aggravate it in his first carry back. He may not. We'll see.

Knowles will add to them defensively but they lose in attack. That means using a sub spot for Bell. You're then relying on Knowles as a prop and I'm less convinced he adds to them from that position.

Wingfield will add squad depth, nothing more.

I'm not sure there's anything there that significantly changes the synopsis. And that, as you say, isn't allowing for further injuries.

Ateotd their backs aren't good enough to win the title. Just my opinion, of course.

I don't particularly disagree with most of those assessments. But yesterday they had to play Bennison who - without wanting to be harsh - offers nothing and they also had two subs who barely played. Walmsley, Lomax and Makinson, even at 75/80%, is a huge improvement on that.

They're obviously on the decline just now and I think they've made mistakes by offering new contracts to older players and not blooding youngsters. Especially now they have so many injuries. But for this season they're not so over the hill that they can't be a serious threat in a big game. It's only 18 months since they were the undisputed top dogs, and I think back to all the times that Leeds looked over the hill during the season then turned it on at the business end.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:11 pm  

Cherry_&_White wrote:

I don't particularly disagree with most of those assessments. But yesterday they had to play Bennison who - without wanting to be harsh - offers nothing and they also had two subs who barely played. Walmsley, Lomax and Makinson, even at 75/80%, is a huge improvement on that.

They're obviously on the decline just now and I think they've made mistakes by offering new contracts to older players and not blooding youngsters. Especially now they have so many injuries. But for this season they're not so over the hill that they can't be a serious threat in a big game. It's only 18 months since they were the undisputed top dogs, and I think back to all the times that Leeds looked over the hill during the season then turned it on at the business end.

I certainly don't disagree. Every team offers a threat. That's the nature of sport so I'm certainly not ruling Saints out, although I appreciate it might come across that way. I'm merely commenting in "all things being equal" terms. I think it will be hard for them to make top 2 (although certainly not impossible) and I don't fancy their chances from outside the top 2. It would take too many sides having an off game and Saints being relatively injury free, in form and on their game, every game. I just think that's a tall order.

Also, regarding them being top dogs 18 months ago I would add that 18 months is a long time in professional sport when you're at the back end of your career. Look at Roby last year compared to the year before. I also think the current team is worse man for man than the one you refer to, especially when you compare the current versions of some of the players to their 18 months ago versions. I can't think of many that are improved tbh.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Jun 24, 2024 3:04 pm  

All a game of opinions but the bookies aren't usually far off the money. They obviously have Wigan as favourites for the Grand Final, with Saints second favourites at 5/2 and then a big gap to Wire and HKR at 9/1 apiece.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Jun 24, 2024 3:16 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

Also, regarding them being top dogs 18 months ago I would add that 18 months is a long time in professional sport when you're at the back end of your career.

It's a long time in sport in general tbh.

I was a little shocked on Friday, whilst looking at the pic of the 2022 CF winning squad, as to how many have left the club in such a relatively short space of time. 7 of the starting 17 have gone - Thornley, Bibby, Cust, Tommy, Singo, Bateman & Smithies. Add in the squad players stood in the background guys like KPP, Shorrocks, Partington, McDonnell & Powell have all left too.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Jun 24, 2024 4:34 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I certainly don't disagree. Every team offers a threat. That's the nature of sport so I'm certainly not ruling Saints out, although I appreciate it might come across that way. I'm merely commenting in "all things being equal" terms. I think it will be hard for them to make top 2 (although certainly not impossible) and I don't fancy their chances from outside the top 2. It would take too many sides having an off game and Saints being relatively injury free, in form and on their game, every game. I just think that's a tall order.

Also, regarding them being top dogs 18 months ago I would add that 18 months is a long time in professional sport when you're at the back end of your career. Look at Roby last year compared to the year before. I also think the current team is worse man for man than the one you refer to, especially when you compare the current versions of some of the players to their 18 months ago versions. I can't think of many that are improved tbh.

Fair enough - I don't think we're disagreeing a great deal in terms of them being on the slide. Just maybe about the degree of their drop off. You're right about 18 months having the potential to be a long time in sport too. It has to be given the amount of ground we had to make up to go past them - which we obviously have.

My view is simply that we shouldn't overdo their decline too early, especially when they're missing half a team. Injuries will probably stop them finishing in the top two, but with a few key players back they are still a force to be reckoned with, and I'd make them decent favourites against both Hull KR and Wire away because of what they've done in the past, and their ability to win big games. Even this season we can look to Good Friday as an example for how their defence and intensity can cause anyone problems.

I suppose this is a long winded way of saying that if I were a Saints fan, I'd feel pretty gloomy about their prospects for the next couple of years but actually feel pretty optimistic about doing something this campaign.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:53 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

All a game of opinions but the bookies aren't usually far off the money. They obviously have Wigan as favourites for the Grand Final, with Saints second favourites at 5/2 and then a big gap to Wire and HKR at 9/1 apiece.

As I remember Saints started the season as favorites last year

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:37 pm  

Cherry_&_White wrote:

Fair enough - I don't think we're disagreeing a great deal in terms of them being on the slide. Just maybe about the degree of their drop off. You're right about 18 months having the potential to be a long time in sport too. It has to be given the amount of ground we had to make up to go past them - which we obviously have.

My view is simply that we shouldn't overdo their decline too early, especially when they're missing half a team. Injuries will probably stop them finishing in the top two, but with a few key players back they are still a force to be reckoned with, and I'd make them decent favourites against both Hull KR and Wire away because of what they've done in the past, and their ability to win big games. Even this season we can look to Good Friday as an example for how their defence and intensity can cause anyone problems.

I suppose this is a long winded way of saying that if I were a Saints fan, I'd feel pretty gloomy about their prospects for the next couple of years but actually feel pretty optimistic about doing something this campaign.

No problems with that synopsis mate. As NK says above, it's a game of opinions.

I will just add as a final word that I said they were in decline last year too and that proved to be correct and I think they're worse this season than last....or at least I haven't yet seen anything to convince me otherwise. They were decent Good Friday but it was on home soil and we were down to 12 for more than a third of the game. Worse still the sending off/yellow card were at the ends of each half which I think compounded the problem. Yet we were winning until the final minutes of the game. I haven't seen anything from them approaching that intensity since and their away form in particular has been poor against top sides.

The game coming up will tell us more. If they win, or even put in a good performance, then I'll perhaps see it differently but, as things stand, I don't see a top 2 placing for them and I don't think they'll win it from outside the top 2.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Tue Jun 25, 2024 7:30 am  

One thing for sure is that if we do continue to decline as expected for a couple of seasons then its not a good look for the game as Wigan will have no real competition with the state of the rest of the teams. SL needs a strong Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Leeds and Hull and the last 3 are still some way away. I thought Warrington were on a bit of a resurgence but they've lapsed again and a lot will depend how soon Burgess leaves.

In 2019 we strolled the competition and no one could come near us, 2021 was a little bit similar although Catalans were strong then.

I'm sure a lot of Wigan fans won't care if they keep winning every year but I do feel there could be very little competition for them in the short-term