Re: Kaide Ellis : Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:59 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Been snooping on Red Vee and Ellis is another rubbish player unfortunately. Not good enough for the bench of a mid table team came one call.

I suggest they go and do a statistical comparison to Lees, LMS, Wingfield, Knowles or even Paasi. It doesn’t make for pretty reading for those guys if Ellis is not good enough for a mid table teams bench.

I know that on Redvee everything Wigan is poor but, even by their standards, that's ridiculous. Ellis is exactly the sort of prop packs are built on. Consistent, great attitude, good metres, solid defence...what's not to like? It staggers me that they laud Lees, who is one of the poorest metre makers in the comp, is inconsistent and, when not playing off the back of Walmsley and Paasi, is almost universally anonymous yet decry someone like Ellis who beats him in every measurable metric! I guess he does lead their much vaunted "line speed" though, so that's ok. And what a stirling job of that he's doing this year too!

Re: Kaide Ellis : Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:13 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

I know that on Redvee everything Wigan is poor but, even by their standards, that's ridiculous. Ellis is exactly the sort of prop packs are built on. Consistent, great attitude, good metres, solid defence...what's not to like? It staggers me that they laud Lees, who is one of the poorest metre makers in the comp, is inconsistent and, when not playing off the back of Walmsley and Paasi, is almost universally anonymous yet decry someone like Ellis who beats him in every measurable metric! I guess he does lead their much vaunted "line speed" though, so that's ok. And what a stirling job of that he's doing this year too!

Just give it up. You just need to accept that not a single player from any other club gets into a Saints 17.

Re: Kaide Ellis : Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:17 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

I know that on Redvee everything Wigan is poor but, even by their standards, that's ridiculous. Ellis is exactly the sort of prop packs are built on. Consistent, great attitude, good metres, solid defence...what's not to like? It staggers me that they laud Lees, who is one of the poorest metre makers in the comp, is inconsistent and, when not playing off the back of Walmsley and Paasi, is almost universally anonymous yet decry someone like Ellis who beats him in every measurable metric! I guess he does lead their much vaunted "line speed" though, so that's ok. And what a stirling job of that he's doing this year too!

If we just go Ellis verses Lees and look at games they’ve run above 100 metres or under 50 metres, it stacks up as below-

Under 50 metres

Ellis 2
Lees 4

Over 100 metres

Ellis 4
Lees 2

Ellis has done that in 13 appearances, against Lees 17 appearances. Ellis hasn’t gone under 50 metres since game 4 as well, so after a slow start he’s got better and better.

It’s not telling us everything but if Ellis ain’t good enough for the bench of a mid table team, Lees best pack up and head off to the Championship. I actually like Lees as well tbh and appreciate they’re slightly different in style (but fundamentally their jobs are the same).

Re: Kaide Ellis : Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:20 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

If we just go Ellis verses Lees and look at games they’ve run above 100 metres or under 50 metres, it stacks up as below-

Under 50 metres

Ellis 2
Lees 4

Over 100 metres

Ellis 4
Lees 2

Ellis has done that in 13 appearances, against Lees 17 appearances. Ellis hasn’t gone under 50 metres since game 4 as well, so after a slow start he’s got better and better.

It’s not telling us everything but if Ellis ain’t good enough for the bench of a mid table team, Lees best pack up and head off to the Championship. I actually like Lees as well tbh and appreciate they’re slightly different in style (but fundamentally their jobs are the same).

Nothing against Lees, or Knowles either for that matter, but I've said many times they are both just good grafters. Neither has outstanding skill, they just (for the most part) work hard and with good intensity. There's nothing wrong with that. All teams need grafters. All teams need solid "7 or 8 out of 10 every week" players too. What gets my goat is how the Redvee lot elevate them beyond what they are whilst,at the same time, tagging players like Ellis as less than they are for fulfilling a similar role. Lees isn't a world-beater. He never will be. That's fine. Knowles isn't much better than Smithies (if indeed he has been better this season which I don't think he has). Neither will ever be Brad Fittler, Paul Sculthorpe or Ellery Hanley. That's fine too

Ellis is a quality player and a good addition to our team and culture and guess what? That's fine as well.

Re: Kaide Ellis : Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:58 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

Nothing against Lees, or Knowles either for that matter, but I've said many times they are both just good grafters. Neither has outstanding skill, they just (for the most part) work hard and with good intensity. There's nothing wrong with that. All teams need grafters. All teams need solid "7 or 8 out of 10 every week" players too. What gets my goat is how the Redvee lot elevate them beyond what they are whilst,at the same time, tagging players like Ellis as less than they are for fulfilling a similar role. Lees isn't a world-beater. He never will be. That's fine. Knowles isn't much better than Smithies (if indeed he has been better this season which I don't think he has). Neither will ever be Brad Fittler, Paul Sculthorpe or Ellery Hanley. That's fine too

Ellis is a quality player and a good addition to our team and culture and guess what? That's fine as well.

I have held back on saying this for a while, to just give him a bit more time to cement it in my mind but I now think Smithies has gone past Knowles. He’s outperformed him for a season and two thirds now and is adding things to his game. At the same time, I think Knowles has dropped off a little and has struggled to get his form going due to constantly missing games. Overall there isn’t much in it but there is no way I’d swap them.

Re: Kaide Ellis : Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:12 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I have held back on saying this for a while, to just give him a bit more time to cement it in my mind but I now think Smithies has gone past Knowles. He’s outperformed him for a season and two thirds now and is adding things to his game. At the same time, I think Knowles has dropped off a little and has struggled to get his form going due to constantly missing games. Overall there isn’t much in it but there is no way I’d swap them.

Whilst I can't claim to have seen every Saints game, in the ones I have seen Knowles has been way off previous year's form. In fact he's been largely anonymous for the most part. One of our Saints posters would be able to comment with more authority than myself but, factoring in what I've seen Saints fans themselves saying; that he shouldn't be their loose forward any more and that it's time for Bell to step up, I would surmise that he hasn't been breaking any pots. They wouldn't suggest moving their self proclaimed "best player in the comp" from his favoured position if he was doing the business there.

With all that in mind I would say Smithies has comfortably overtaken him this season. Even last, several journalists had him over Knowles in their end of season Dream Teams and the statistics supported that view. If he's better (and as I say, my personal view is he hasn't been this season or for large parts of last) it's, at best, marginal. Given their respective ages, I wouldn't swap them either. The problem is, unlike Knowles, I think Smithies is casting his eyes at the NRL.

Re: Kaide Ellis : Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:40 pm  

Until Knowles was mentioned I thought he had retired.
Smithies is a better player now.