Re: Betting in 2022 : Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:38 am  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

Not sure what you are talking about?.. Saints had quite a long transition period between the late 00's until 2019. Often underacheived and won very little, apart from a gifted GF, courtesy of Ben Flower.

You said ". New coach, a number of new players, new tactics and strategies for the existing players to adapt to. It's going to be inconsistent for the majority of it"

Saints went through exactly the same after Holbrook and won a GF, then won another one.

I don't think we are in transition ie) recently successful team having to rebuild in a fallow year to attain former glories. I think we have been pretty average for about 8 years.

The only thing stopping us going for a GF win in 2022 is likely our squad balance.

Re: Betting in 2022 : Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:34 am  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

Not sure what you are talking about?.. Saints had quite a long transition period between the late 00's until 2019. Often underacheived and won very little, apart from a gifted GF, courtesy of Ben Flower.

The last of Saints infamous "5 in a row" was in 2011, which was also the year they moved into the new stadium. What followed was 2 years of "cladding-gate" where the management openly accepted they took their eye off the ball due to the stadium teething problems. 2014, and then the Cunningham years which weren't so much a transition, as a club legend not having the skillset necessary and managing to alienate virtually everyone associated with the club.

When Holbrook took over it was expected that there was going to be a big transition period for us, but he took the same squad Cunningham had and were a moment of madness from Ryan Morgan/ Percival learning how to kick away from another Grand Final in 2017 (I had booked a holiday for the semis I was so sure that Saints weren't doing anything that year, I managed to get logged into the hotel wifi and open sky just to see Gale kicking the drop goal which what pretty wrenching!) We choked out of 2018 due to the Barba saga, and then the rest is history...

If anything the last real transition period was the "Lomaskell" years which was before the 5 in a row came to an end in the late 2000s. Since then we seem to be in a constant conveyor belt of losing 2 or 3 big names at a time, rather than wholesale changes. 2023 might be interesting, with Roby, LMS, Amor and possibly Grace retiring/ going to union (so same thing ) but we should then have Welsby and Dodd fully bedded in.

I have often said that we have had to relearn how to play big games after 5 in a row, which definitely led to underachievement in the Challenge Cup which also makes the first half of the 2010s seem even more barren, but the two blips in the last decade have come from off the field issues (stadium, coach) rather than the playing roster itself ...

Re: Betting in 2022 : Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:26 am  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

The last of Saints infamous "5 in a row" was in 2011, which was also the year they moved into the new stadium. What followed was 2 years of "cladding-gate" where the management openly accepted they took their eye off the ball due to the stadium teething problems. 2014, and then the Cunningham years which weren't so much a transition, as a club legend not having the skillset necessary and managing to alienate virtually everyone associated with the club.

When Holbrook took over it was expected that there was going to be a big transition period for us, but he took the same squad Cunningham had and were a moment of madness from Ryan Morgan/ Percival learning how to kick away from another Grand Final in 2017 (I had booked a holiday for the semis I was so sure that Saints weren't doing anything that year, I managed to get logged into the hotel wifi and open sky just to see Gale kicking the drop goal which what pretty wrenching!) We choked out of 2018 due to the Barba saga, and then the rest is history...

If anything the last real transition period was the "Lomaskell" years which was before the 5 in a row came to an end in the late 2000s. Since then we seem to be in a constant conveyor belt of losing 2 or 3 big names at a time, rather than wholesale changes. 2023 might be interesting, with Roby, LMS, Amor and possibly Grace retiring/ going to union (so same thing ) but we should then have Welsby and Dodd fully bedded in.

I have often said that we have had to relearn how to play big games after 5 in a row, which definitely led to underachievement in the Challenge Cup which also makes the first half of the 2010s seem even more barren, but the two blips in the last decade have come from off the field issues (stadium, coach) rather than the playing roster itself ...

Great post, and makes a pleasant change from the usual wum nonsense we get from your peers.

Re: Betting in 2022 : Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:31 pm  

The top clubs seem to manage to keep the odd trophy coming in even during transition period.

Saints won in 2014 and it was seen as a kind of anomaly in a 'down period' for the club. If we had won in 2014 it would still be regarded as the greatest moment in Wire history. Leeds also won a Challenge Cup while rebuilding their squad after the retirement of a lot of greats.

I don't think next year Wire are in a transition period so much as being a team whose squad strength is weakening. We've been a one-and-out team in the playoffs for the last three years but now despite bringing in a good coach we're going to be fielding a squad that already has injuries to important players but has a pack that is way off the pace of being able to compete at the top.

I think it will be a tough season ahead and there will be a lot of crap heaped on Powell for it, if one of the gripes next year is, we've actually gone backwards since Price left.

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: Betting in 2022 : Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:51 am  

I am not sure its particularly important whether we are in transition atm or not. I think we are just avoiding the issue, surely what is important are the prospects for success next year ? 'In transition' sounds more like an excuse for failure, or self psychology to lower our expectations so that we are not too disappointed when we fail to win anything.

I am not sure what indicators you could use to examine the clubs prospects for 2022 but here are a few that spring to mind;

1) Financial Stability
Unlike several SL clubs we have strong financial backers, but the aftermath of Covid will certainly have a significant impact. However everyone will have been negatively affected by Covid so that still leaves us in a relatively strong position 7/10

2) Head Coach
Powell has done well with very limited resources whilst Price has clearly struggled to add much to the team other than perhaps the Aussie defensive aspects (and linking youth development to the first team). Powell has not won the GF, but most people will probably rate him more highly than Price who had no track record whatsoever and was very inexperienced. 7/10

3) 2022 Squad
There are some big questions around the ability of the pack to control the middle ground and we have injuries to key players. We have probably gone backwards with the loss of Hill and Mamo and the start of the season will be impacted further by the injuries. 5/10

4) Academy
I don't think its a coincidence that perennial winners Leeds, Saints and Wigan all have very strong academies. Its a huge advantage to have a steady flow of quality youngsters coming through to replace older / departing players. This has been a weakness at our club for many years but either we have a produced a very good crop of youngsters or the youth programs has turned a corner. Certainly there are grounds for optimism 7/10

5) Culture / Management
We come from a 'brave loser' culture that we need to eradicate (how many of us expected to beat Saints in the last cc final ?). I wonder when we bring in a new manager / academy player do we agree at Board / Coach level exactly what timescale for success the individual has before he is released ? And no, I don't think the contract period should determine the success timescale.We may have to pay for a 3 year contract because its the going rate, but set ourselves a 2 year period for success. Individual head coaches and academy players have been retained for too long in the hope that they will come good. Sport is a pretty brutal master in this regard and we need to accept that.
Do we split talent identification ( assessment of potential targets) from actual recruitment (salary and contract negotiations) ? My suspicions are that this is a moving feast according to who is the CEO and head coach at that time.
As supporters we don't see much of what is happening in the 'back of office' but I think I would grade this one at 5/10

Adding that all up I would say we have grounds for optimism, but if we have a bad year I suppose we could justifiably say that it was a 'transition year'

Re: Betting in 2022 : Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:20 pm  

Just took a look at Skybet on the back of comments made about last weeks Wigan game and the upcoming Salford game and we have gone from even to getting 2 from Leeds on the handicap.

Re: Betting in 2022 : Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:20 pm  

We now getting 4 for this up from 2

Re: Betting in 2022 : Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:05 pm  

Leigh 5/4 to win tonight.
Treble for the weekend Salford +12, Wigan-4, Hull-2.

Re: Betting in 2022 : Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:23 pm  

That +12 for Salford looks huge

Re: Betting in 2022 : Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:47 pm  

Moe syslak wrote:

Leigh 5/4 to win tonight.
Treble for the weekend Salford +12, Wigan-4, Hull-2.

Hope the treble works out better than the 5/4 Leigh