Re: Talk about a Player, any Player. : Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:02 pm  

Tin Soldier wrote:

Which players in the current squad would be mentioned in a similar thread in say 20-30 years time? The Monas brothers, Chris Hill if he continues his current form for a few more years, Westwood. Any more?

An interesting question. Most of the players mentioned, and those remembered fondly, were not only great players, but had charisma and played the game during eras when the game was full of characters. What prompts people to remember them with affection was as much down to their off-the-cuff skills and personalities as their achievements. The SL-revoloution has produced some wonderful stadia, tremendous athletes and some memorable games but has also wholly sanitised the game. I can't stand Hock, and I wouldn't want him at the club, but he is at least a bit of a ner do well who inspires opinions.

Re: Talk about a Player, any Player. : Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:37 pm  

Gareth Hock isn't a character. He doesn't have any charisma at all. Just being a troublemaker is not being a character, Zak Hardaker gets sent home from England training camp and done for homophobic abuse but I don't think we'll be musing in 30 years over what a character he was.

Mike Gregory, Nat Wood, these are characters.

Re: Talk about a Player, any Player. : Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:55 pm  

morrisseyisawire wrote:

Jon Roper was, frankly, a totally unprofessional idiot and the personification of why shirking arrogance always overcomes talent. He could have been as good as Paul Newlove, maybe even better, but he lacked the work ethic to go with his talent and the intelligence to realise he was throwing away a talent his peers could never attain.

Some of us have waxed lyrical about how so-and-so would have been world beaters in a full time environment; Roper wouldn't. He wouldn't have lasted five minutes in an organisation where how you conduct yourself 24//7 is as important as how you can time a pass.

Not in a million years could Roper have been as good as Newlove.

What did Roper have that Newlove didn't? He was a reasonably big lad that obviously had some ability, decent hands, and could have been a good SL player, but he wasn't the languid huge hulking destroyer that Newlove was even when Newlove didn't look that interested.

If Roper had been Kevin Sinfield-esque in his attitude he would have had a long career as a SL player and maybe been on the fringes of the GB squad but he was never going to have the impact that the likes of Senior, Newlove or Connolly would.

One problem with Roper was I never fancied his defence, wherever you put him, he wasn't like say Michael Eagar who we had at centre at the same time that was just solid.

The one who could have been as good as Newlove was Toa Kohe-Love, and at his peak he was up there with Newlove. With Toa it wasn't attitude that scuppered him he just had too many injuries. But even when they were both emerging around 1996 you could see Toa was streets ahead of Roper in natural talent.

Re: Talk about a Player, any Player. : Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:07 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Not in a million years could Roper have been as good as Newlove.

What did Roper have that Newlove didn't? He was a reasonably big lad that obviously had some ability, decent hands, and could have been a good SL player, but he wasn't the languid huge hulking destroyer that Newlove was even when Newlove didn't look that interested.

If Roper had been Kevin Sinfield-esque in his attitude he would have had a long career as a SL player and maybe been on the fringes of the GB squad but he was never going to have the impact that the likes of Senior, Newlove or Connolly would.

One problem with Roper was I never fancied his defence, wherever you put him, he wasn't like say Michael Eagar who we had at centre at the same time that was just solid.

The one who could have been as good as Newlove was Toa Kohe-Love, and at his peak he was up there with Newlove. With Toa it wasn't attitude that scuppered him he just had too many injuries. But even when they were both emerging around 1996 you could see Toa was streets ahead of Roper in natural talent.

Well, I disagree but there you go. Newlove played in some great Saints teams, Roper played in some average Wires ones. I maintain Roper didn't have the temperament to make it even in a full-time environment. As for how good he could have been if he'd have had some intelligence, you don't know and nor do I but the talent was there. In terms of GB, as you'll recall he did earn one England cap which showed all the potential was there, but the grey matter was lacking.

Re: Talk about a Player, any Player. : Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:17 am  

Getting an England cap is hardly a marker of great potential: England was just a second string for players that weren't in the full GB side, that England team Roper played in had guys like Marcus St Hilaire, Francis Maloney, Steve Blakeley and Darren Rogers in it.

Newlove single handedly turned a decent but not great Bradford in to contenders, he was as influential for them as Jonathan Davies was for us. Roper would never have done that.

I think Roper got overhyped as a young player coming up because he came on the scene young and because of the feelgood factor about that generation of players: he was the same era as Harris and Sculthorpe. But when people said he had all this great ability - what did he have? I don't remember him having raw explosive pace or great strength, he had decent hands and if I remember once or twice we played him at stand-off but that was as a fill in. He didn't have anything that really stood out to me other than just being a decent biggish guy.

He got some bad injuries if I remember rightly when he was young which didn't help and then when he lost form the fans turned on him very quickly....there was an unusual nastiness towards Roper from the terraces which is surprising as he was one of our own home grown produced players. Maybe the hostility of the crowd plus impact of his injuries just disillusioned him and he gave the impression he wasn't interested.

I do remember him being linked with a move to Bradford when they were on the way up and looking for emerging talent at smaller teams, but nothing came of it. If he'd gone there maybe he would have had a bit more success eg like Nathan McAvoy did. But McAvoy was about his level, he was never a Newlove.

Re: Talk about a Player, any Player. : Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:13 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Getting an England cap is hardly a marker of great potential: England was just a second string for players that weren't in the full GB side, that England team Roper played in had guys like Marcus St Hilaire, Francis Maloney, Steve Blakeley and Darren Rogers in it.

Newlove single handedly turned a decent but not great Bradford in to contenders, he was as influential for them as Jonathan Davies was for us. Roper would never have done that.

I think Roper got overhyped as a young player coming up because he came on the scene young and because of the feelgood factor about that generation of players: he was the same era as Harris and Sculthorpe. But when people said he had all this great ability - what did he have? I don't remember him having raw explosive pace or great strength, he had decent hands and if I remember once or twice we played him at stand-off but that was as a fill in. He didn't have anything that really stood out to me other than just being a decent biggish guy.

He got some bad injuries if I remember rightly when he was young which didn't help and then when he lost form the fans turned on him very quickly....there was an unusual nastiness towards Roper from the terraces which is surprising as he was one of our own home grown produced players. Maybe the hostility of the crowd plus impact of his injuries just disillusioned him and he gave the impression he wasn't interested.

I do remember him being linked with a move to Bradford when they were on the way up and looking for emerging talent at smaller teams, but nothing came of it. If he'd gone there maybe he would have had a bit more success eg like Nathan McAvoy did. But McAvoy was about his level, he was never a Newlove.

He was his own worst enemy, I can assure you.

Re: Talk about a Player, any Player. : Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:43 am  

getdownmonkeyman wrote:

He was his own worst enemy, I can assure you.

The nickname given to him by DVDV was 'Babs' which says it all really.

Re: Talk about a Player, any Player. : Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:50 pm  

My first game at Wilderspool in 1968 my memory is of Jeff Bootle because he kicked 6 goals that day. I was then lucky enough but not appreciative enough to see Bobby Fulton for a brief period. My first hero really was John Bevan. Will never forget his hat trick in the semi final at Central Park to get us to Wembley.

Have been lucky enough to see all sorts of great players over the years. Been amazed at how players were suddenly GB internationals when they signed for Wigan from us. My dog Alfie is named after the greatest scrum half I have seen in P & B and we have had a few (I know we had Joey but not for long enough to be counted)

But my biggest hero is Ian Duane. Not because he is the best player we ever had but because he always has me in stitches whenever I meet him. Can that man tell a story.

Re: Talk about a Player, any Player. : Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:42 pm  

morrisseyisawire wrote:

Jon Roper was, frankly, a totally unprofessional idiot and the personification of why shirking arrogance always overcomes talent. He could have been as good as Paul Newlove, maybe even better, but he lacked the work ethic to go with his talent and the intelligence to realise he was throwing away a talent his peers could never attain.

Some of us have waxed lyrical about how so-and-so would have been world beaters in a full time environment; Roper wouldn't. He wouldn't have lasted five minutes in an organisation where how you conduct yourself 24//7 is as important as how you can time a pass.

I'm with you, morrisseyisawire.

The lad had potential and talent to burn.
His first season, at times, he was awesome.
I remember Cas away that season (the fateful 93/94 one), and the lad killed 'em.
I still remember walking away from Wheldon Road, shaking my head about how good a player this lad COULD become. He carried on getting better, but for me, the inception of SL stopped him in his tracks. A nice big contract and a new VW Golf convertible, and the lad goes "Billy Big Biscuits" overnight, and his interest diminishes immediately.

I'm surprised he was still at the club, when the new Millennium came in. The flashes of great play were still there. Just few and far between.

BUGGER!

Re: Talk about a Player, any Player. : Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:48 am  

I remember Roper slimming down for the start of 2000 (I think) and i thought "This will be the making of him, he'll kick on now he's fitter"

Still waiting. Shame really