Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:47 am  

Wires71 wrote:

One game - Come off it? Look at the facts.

Last 3 league games

Wigan - Lost 2nd half 12-21
Widnes - Lost 2nd half 10-12
Catalans - Lost 2nd half 8-22

More tellingly the recent big games. (Ive now added Magic 2016)

CCFinal 2016 - Lost 2nd half 6-12, ahead at HT, lost game
Magic 2016 - Lost 2nd half 0-22, ahead at HT, lost game
SL SF 2014 - Drew 2nd half, lost game.
SL GF 2013 - Lost 2nd half 0-24, ahead at HT, lost game
SL GF 2012 - Lost 2nd half 4-12, ahead at HT, lost game
SL SF 2011 - Lost 2nd half 12-20, ahead at HT, lost game

The omens are clearly not good if we are not unassailably ahead by half time.

Are these them? Our inability to win big games when we are ahead at HT? The Wigan game rubbed salt into the wound as they were down to 12 men for 20 mins. The backlash is justified.

Great post, I agree with you although I feel this shows a weak bench. No disrespect to the younger lads as they have done well for us when they have played but I think the bench has been light all year hill and sims don't have adequate cover, George King has done a job and improved a lot this year but our main issue is that we have had too much of our cover injured throughout the season. We are weakened too much when our interchanges are on, I believe a fit Mitchell dodds and Ryan Bailey would have made a huge difference to us but can we rely on them to be available? I would also discount the 2013 Grand final here, that was for the same reason in terms of cover but our bench was reduced in numbers in that match due to certain tactics.

If this season has highlighted anything to me it's that you can't carry unfit players in your salary cap and small squad, I feel sorry for the likes of wheeler and Ben Evans but if they aren't ever available then they can't be an effective part of the squad and the money should be used elsewhere. We need to address the interchange badly and especially in the forwards, on paper we have the personnel but they haven't been available. I think we need 4 props that we can rely on being fit for the majority of the season. Bailey I would give another year as he has done well for me when he has played and although I don't know what he is paid I expect he has been pretty cost effective. I hope Ben Harrison is good to go for next year and if dodds recovers then him too, but I feel with those 3 we are asking for another season being short of cover. It's not just forwards, we have been unlucky with injuries in many aspects but we need to be able to handle them better like some of our rivals have.

I think we still have a chance this season but it depends on which bodies will be back in contention next week and if we get to old Trafford the week after as well.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:10 am  

"I think this has to be the final nail for Smith. We've seen that he's made mistakes in the past and we've said he should be given the opportunity to rectify them but he's not rectifying this one is he? He lost sight of the state of the squad after our good 2009-2013 team came to its end. In the Winter of 2012 i think he signed one player, in the Winter of 2013 he didn't sign a single player and in the Winter of 2014 he only signed a few players including Asotasi. That's when we saw Morley Briers Carvell Wood Solomona MKing LAnderson MMonaghan Cooper Hodgson etc all leave the club. How can someone allow the squad to fall that far back? That's poor foresight and poor management.

He got his shock through the realisation of our drop in quality and we started to make good signings again since with Clark Westerman Gidley and Sandow so to a certain extent he rectified that mistake. But he's not rectifying the blasé attitude he puts onto us when we get a lead in a big game. And for that i think it's time for him to go!"

Yes it was poor management to not replace the loss of quality players with others. We did have an over reliance on youth players coming through. But not being too close to the board at Warrington, how do we know that this wasn't a direction from the Warrington board, and the then Chief Exec, Andy Gatcliffe? He did a good job taking the hard up club into a new stadium and stabilising the finances of the club. However, the directors wanted more for the club and brought in Roger Draper with the brief to grow the profile, increase attendances, and to make the club the number 1 in SL.. The recruitment policy appeared to changed then, is that just a coincidence? Possibly, as I said earlier I am not close enough to the facts.
There seems to be loss of impetus on the Under 19s who finished 9th in their league this year. There are a small number of youngsters coming through but nothing like the Wigans, Leeds and Saints. Is this a deliberate policy or again poor management. Who has the ultimate responsibility for deciding on our recruitment policy through all the age ranges? TS will have a big say, but who makes the final decision? Until we know that we can all criticise TS for getting it wrong, but is it his sole responsibility?

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:11 am  

CW8 wrote:

If this season has highlighted anything to me it's that you can't carry unfit players in your salary cap and small squad, I feel sorry for the likes of wheeler and Ben Evans but if they aren't ever available then they can't be an effective part of the squad and the money should be used elsewhere. We need to address the interchange badly and especially in the forwards, on paper we have the personnel but they haven't been available. I think we need 4 props that we can rely on being fit for the majority of the season. Bailey I would give another year as he has done well for me when he has played and although I don't know what he is paid I expect he has been pretty cost effective. I hope Ben Harrison is good to go for next year and if dodds recovers then him too, but I feel with those 3 we are asking for another season being short of cover. It's not just forwards, we have been unlucky with injuries in many aspects but we need to be able to handle them better like some of our rivals have.

Yes were are weak on the bench. Mind you we only have ourselves to blame with management decisions and recruitment.

Ben Harrison - we knew he was out for 2016 - has to be a risk after his layoff and injury record. Can we rely on him for 2017?
Bailey - injured on signing - again has to be a risk with his injuries, age etc. Can we rely on him for 2017?
Dodds - injured on signing, it was unfortunate and his broken leg was not caused by his previous injuries from Australia.
Westwood - a bad injury this year and his best days are behind him. He still shines in our pack when he comes on but that says more about the pack.
Cox - Last chance saloon gamble after Peacock got rid at Hull KR.

Our mitigation for next year is lamentably

Cooper
Matty Blyth.

Because of this I would not renew Dodds. I would use the money to go after a replacement from Aus without the history. Too much risk. We are going to burn Hill out.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:57 am  

I agree, we will definitely be stronger with Cooper coming in. The Cox and Bailey signings probably showed that it was known we were lacking in forwards but those acquisitions unfortunately haven't solved the issue, although as I mentioned earlier I have been quite happy with what I have seen from Bailey.

Recruitment is always going to be difficult due to available cap space, lack of available players and competition for signings from other clubs here and abroad where they have a higher cap.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:10 pm  

ninearches wrote:

I think i would call them a team of club standard players. None of them set my world alight. I don't know if Tomkins has any magic left in him.

Wow. I mean don't get me wrong I hate Wigan. And I mean really hate them but as a lover of rugby league to say all those players are just club standard is unbelievable. Tomkins, Charnley, Gelling, Williams and Bateman especially.

That's your opinion though and everyone is entitled to one I guess.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:11 pm  

CW8 wrote:

I agree, we will definitely be stronger with Cooper coming in. The Cox and Bailey signings probably showed that it was known we were lacking in forwards but those acquisitions unfortunately haven't solved the issue, although as I mentioned earlier I have been quite happy with what I have seen from Bailey.

Recruitment is always going to be difficult due to available cap space, lack of available players and competition for signings from other clubs here and abroad where they have a higher cap.

Of course there is the cap and competition to consider. We need to plan on having 5 quality props, get rid of the injury prone or those not up to standard, and make good offers, in time to our targets. Not having Hill, Sims and 5 others with question marks. The panic buying of Bailey and Cox was an example of lack of planning and risk management.

I agree with you Bailey has been decent - when he is available for selection.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:18 pm  

moving on... wrote:

Wow. I mean don't get me wrong I hate Wigan. And I mean really hate them but as a lover of rugby league to say all those players are just club standard is unbelievable. Tomkins, Charnley, Gelling, Williams and Bateman especially.

That's your opinion though and everyone is entitled to one I guess.

Wow too. My view of the comparison based on current form

Tomkins >> Ratchford
Charnley >> Matty Russel
Gelling > Toby King
Sarginson = Ryan Atkins
Williams > Gidley
Smith > Patton
Flower = Sims
Bateman = Currie
Farrell >> Hughes

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:38 pm  

I agree with you Wires71 apart from Farrell.

Hughes is 10x the player Farrell is and gets through more work. he also does the little 1% things that go un-noticed. Don't get me wrong Farrell is a top back rower but for me Hughes has already surpassed him.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:12 pm  

moving on... wrote:

I agree with you Wires71 apart from Farrell.

Hughes is 10x the player Farrell is and gets through more work. he also does the little 1% things that go un-noticed. Don't get me wrong Farrell is a top back rower but for me Hughes has already surpassed him.

No way

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:16 pm  

Wigg'n wrote:

No way

sound