: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:38 pm  

Wires71 wrote: Whilst appreciating your views, I wonder if you have given consideration to :- Brown's methods of getting the country out of recession Most, if not all political commentary has denounced the recent budget based on unrealistic expectations of recovery not shared by any respected economist and at direct odds with the views of the IMF. Classic example of incompetence was the totally ineffective VAT cut. Conservative economic policies - are actually explained quite clearly here http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Whe ... onomy.aspx Strong education system - failed policy of educational academies but worse of all introducing tuition fees putting students from a less well of background at a disproportionate disadvantage to those from richer families. Defiance against oppressive political regimes - Check out our ineffective foreign policy in relation to Zimbabwee to name just one example. Any how it's all just opinions. Recession As mentioned countless times, this is a Global Recession with it very difficult to blame any particular country, although America appear to be mainly to blame due to poor financial sector regulation. As i said on National TV, Gordon Brown is leading the world out of recession, his policies are being adopted all around the world. Also, many figures this month indicate recovery and i am very optimistic that by Election Day 2010 - Labour will have steadied the economy. Conservative Economic Policies Of course the Tory's have policies on their website as it is mandatory. However, all they seem to be doing is attacking the Government without providing any alternatives. Cameron & Osborne haven't got a clue how to deal with an economy. Education City Academies have in many cases worked successfully, and by the way, they were backed by a significant amount of Conservative MP's. On Tuition Fees, i am currently preparing to pay Tuition Fees but i still understand the logic behind them. If Tuition Fees did not exist, Uni standards would drop significantly and student places would decrease. TF's are also a far advance from Mrs Thatcher's Policy for University as "Rich Only". Regimes Zimbabwe is an extremely difficult country to break down, mainly due to the lack of activity from South Africa. It does at present seem that Robert Mugabe is now slightly more democratic, but the situation will continue to be assessed. Good Points but Be Ready to Debate. FC

Wires71 wrote: Whilst appreciating your views, I wonder if you have given consideration to :- Brown's methods of getting the country out of recession Most, if not all political commentary has denounced the recent budget based on unrealistic expectations of recovery not shared by any respected economist and at direct odds with the views of the IMF. Classic example of incompetence was the totally ineffective VAT cut. Conservative economic policies - are actually explained quite clearly here http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Whe ... onomy.aspx Strong education system - failed policy of educational academies but worse of all introducing tuition fees putting students from a less well of background at a disproportionate disadvantage to those from richer families. Defiance against oppressive political regimes - Check out our ineffective foreign policy in relation to Zimbabwee to name just one example. Any how it's all just opinions. Recession As mentioned countless times, this is a Global Recession with it very difficult to blame any particular country, although America appear to be mainly to blame due to poor financial sector regulation. As i said on National TV, Gordon Brown is leading the world out of recession, his policies are being adopted all around the world. Also, many figures this month indicate recovery and i am very optimistic that by Election Day 2010 - Labour will have steadied the economy. Conservative Economic Policies Of course the Tory's have policies on their website as it is mandatory. However, all they seem to be doing is attacking the Government without providing any alternatives. Cameron & Osborne haven't got a clue how to deal with an economy. Education City Academies have in many cases worked successfully, and by the way, they were backed by a significant amount of Conservative MP's. On Tuition Fees, i am currently preparing to pay Tuition Fees but i still understand the logic behind them. If Tuition Fees did not exist, Uni standards would drop significantly and student places would decrease. TF's are also a far advance from Mrs Thatcher's Policy for University as "Rich Only". Regimes Zimbabwe is an extremely difficult country to break down, mainly due to the lack of activity from South Africa. It does at present seem that Robert Mugabe is now slightly more democratic, but the situation will continue to be assessed. Good Points but Be Ready to Debate. FC

: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:39 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

My reply was in relation to WWI and WWII as well you know. Broadening the argument though, which conflicts to which you are aware, have British forces been deployed where there wasn't an existing democratic voting system or to bring about a democracy? Let me remind you The Nazi Party was freely elected in 1932 by the German people, Iraq and Afghanistan had a democratic electoral system.

And I wasn't referring to British forces. I was talking about people (anywhere in the world) dying in an attempt to get the vote. If democracy is so wonderful and we have it here, then don't abuse that privilege.

There's another argument about whether the NSDAP was freely elected in Germany in 1933. And even if you accept they were, their grip on power was not strengthened in any democratic way. (I know you're being provocative there as you're not a nazi).

: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:40 pm  

The All New Chester Wire wrote:

And you think the Greens are too right wing?

i don't think my views are right wing i just don't see the point in Brussels running our country and paying for the benefit ?

: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:44 pm  

Brussels doesn't run our country. Our parliament does (or senior civil servants if Yes Prime Minister had it right; poliitical advisers if The Thick of It is right). If Brussels ran our country, we'd have the Euro.

: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:48 pm  

Ian [77] wrote: I was referring to the 2nd World War. I was under the impression that it was about fighting Nazi Germany and that, in some way, it was linked to protecting democracy. On that very simple level, people did sort of die so we can do things like vote. That may be a simplistic view but occasionally the devil isn't in the detail. I wasn't aware that the vast majority of British WWI servicemen were conscripted. Not convinced of its relevance but interesting nonetheless. I knew you were referring to WWII. I'll make my point again that The Nazi party were elected by a completely transparent democratic electoral process in 1932 (Reichstag election), then went to the polls again in 1933 to gain a greater mandate with over 8.5 million members by the time of WWII. In terms of WWI, we treated our conscripted servicemen terribly. Shocking life expectancy, training, conditions and equipment. One only needs to read Wilfred Owen(1) or Siegfried Sassoon(2) to understand this inhumanity our Government put them through. Both condemn the nature and motives of WWI and those who sought to profit by it. It was more to do with the axis of power in western Europe caused by the vacuum of the Prussian empire than it ever was about the right to vote. In closing, and paradoxically, our Government didn't give the right to vote to women until after WWI in 1918 mainly due to the serious lack of able bodied men left in the country following the war. 1) http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html 2) http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8103/

Ian [77] wrote: I was referring to the 2nd World War. I was under the impression that it was about fighting Nazi Germany and that, in some way, it was linked to protecting democracy. On that very simple level, people did sort of die so we can do things like vote. That may be a simplistic view but occasionally the devil isn't in the detail. I wasn't aware that the vast majority of British WWI servicemen were conscripted. Not convinced of its relevance but interesting nonetheless. I knew you were referring to WWII. I'll make my point again that The Nazi party were elected by a completely transparent democratic electoral process in 1932 (Reichstag election), then went to the polls again in 1933 to gain a greater mandate with over 8.5 million members by the time of WWII. In terms of WWI, we treated our conscripted servicemen terribly. Shocking life expectancy, training, conditions and equipment. One only needs to read Wilfred Owen(1) or Siegfried Sassoon(2) to understand this inhumanity our Government put them through. Both condemn the nature and motives of WWI and those who sought to profit by it. It was more to do with the axis of power in western Europe caused by the vacuum of the Prussian empire than it ever was about the right to vote. In closing, and paradoxically, our Government didn't give the right to vote to women until after WWI in 1918 mainly due to the serious lack of able bodied men left in the country following the war. 1) http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html 2) http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8103/

: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:51 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

I knew you were referring to WWII. I'll make my point again that The Nazi party were elected by a completely transparent democratic electoral process in 1932 (Reichstag election), then went to the polls again in 1933 to gain a greater mandate with over 8.5 million members by the time of WWII.

Now you're being silly if you really think that the 8.5 million members were all there because they supported the policies of the Nazis or that by 1939, Germany was anything other than a totalitarian state.

: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:52 pm  

The All New Chester Wire wrote:

And I wasn't referring to British forces. I was talking about people (anywhere in the world) dying in an attempt to get the vote. If democracy is so wonderful and we have it here, then don't abuse that privilege.

There's another argument about whether the NSDAP was freely elected in Germany in 1933. And even if you accept they were, their grip on power was not strengthened in any democratic way. (I know you're being provocative there as you're not a nazi).

Kristallnacht? That is one thing that has surprised me in this downturn, not one scapegoat has been put forward, I guess it is down to it's holistic nature.

PS

71, what is your take on Osborne sharing the same growth prediction as Darling?

: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:54 pm  

The All New Chester Wire wrote:

Brussels doesn't run our country. Our parliament does (or senior civil servants if Yes Prime Minister had it right; poliitical advisers if The Thick of It is right). If Brussels ran our country, we'd have the Euro.

I'm fairly relaxed about the Europe issue. We will never yield control over exchange rates and adopt the Euro thankfully. It's only our legal system which occasionally has to yield to The European Courts for certain issues and in some instances that is a very good thing. I'd rather be inside p*ssing out when it comes to the EU.

: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:00 pm  

getdownmonkeyman wrote: PS 71, what is your take on Osborne sharing the same growth prediction as Darling? Please send a link, not saying he hasn't just interested to read it before I comment. I was of the opinion that the Conservatives/Osbourne were relying on the IMF to denounce the growth figures (see below) to avoid any potential for embarrassment in the unlikely event they ever prove correct. I cannot blame him for that. Darling/Brown have already got the borrowing predictions woefully wrong (almost order of magnitude) for 09, 10, and 11 so we need to take his opinions with a pinch of salt. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... ntasy.html

getdownmonkeyman wrote: PS 71, what is your take on Osborne sharing the same growth prediction as Darling? Please send a link, not saying he hasn't just interested to read it before I comment. I was of the opinion that the Conservatives/Osbourne were relying on the IMF to denounce the growth figures (see below) to avoid any potential for embarrassment in the unlikely event they ever prove correct. I cannot blame him for that. Darling/Brown have already got the borrowing predictions woefully wrong (almost order of magnitude) for 09, 10, and 11 so we need to take his opinions with a pinch of salt. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... ntasy.html

: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:04 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

.... the use of PFI in core health care delivery....

PFI is not used for core health care delivery.

It is used to create finance to fund the biggest public building programme since the post war years and to provide ancillary services.