Re: TV games (not Wire) : Sun Aug 25, 2024 6:55 am  

There is no doubt that Saints have had a terrible run with injuries but also poor discipline has meant a number of suspensions that has compounded the problem.
No matter how good our coaching staff are the "next man up" can only go so far and I think we would have struggled given a similar situation.

I think the problem for saints has been their success combined with an ageing squad.
The success means inevitable contract increases as the likes of Welsby, Dodd, Knowles, Lees etc would have had big increases for saints to keep them. Their success has made them move away from their model of if we can't afford them we let them go. So players like Luke Thompson or Bentley, Fages and Coote were let go because they had Lees, Bachelor, welsby and Dodd. It wouldn't surprise me if most of them were now on bigger contracts that the players that left. This means that there is less to go round the rest of the squad which is why you see players like Ritson. So I think the gap between the top earners and the lower paid players is bigger and so is the quality.
That is fine if all your top earners stay fit but an awful lot of them are getting on a bit.

I think we ended up in a similar situation in 2012/13 after a few challenge cup wins and a couple of grand final appearances I think we ended up with an expensive 1-13 but after that there was probably a lack of depth. I don't begrudge any player getting all the money they can because it is a tough sport but in a salary cap sport you have to manage the squad especially if it is an ageing squad.

Wigan have managed this really well when you look at the players they have let go (Gildart, Sutton, Bateman, Smithies, KPP) but they have managed to replace them. I think we have a better balance now but it probably did need the clear out under Powell. We were all questioning letting Daryl Clark go but you can't allow yourself to have too much cap tied up with a small proportion of your squad.

Re: TV games (not Wire) : Sun Aug 25, 2024 7:11 am  

Add to that also some of their youngsters aren’t as good as Sky would like to make out. They could all go on to be great players but at the minute look miles off….Robertson included despite Sky gaslighting us. Our youth that has come in this season has looked physically ready whereas it’s the opposite for Saints….that has been the opposite of seasons gone by.

Re: TV games (not Wire) : Sun Aug 25, 2024 7:14 am  

Deus Dat Incrementum wrote:

There is no doubt that Saints have had a terrible run with injuries but also poor discipline has meant a number of suspensions that has compounded the problem.
No matter how good our coaching staff are the "next man up" can only go so far and I think we would have struggled given a similar situation.

I think the problem for saints has been their success combined with an ageing squad.
The success means inevitable contract increases as the likes of Welsby, Dodd, Knowles, Lees etc would have had big increases for saints to keep them. Their success has made them move away from their model of if we can't afford them we let them go. So players like Luke Thompson or Bentley, Fages and Coote were let go because they had Lees, Bachelor, welsby and Dodd. It wouldn't surprise me if most of them were now on bigger contracts that the players that left. This means that there is less to go round the rest of the squad which is why you see players like Ritson. So I think the gap between the top earners and the lower paid players is bigger and so is the quality.
That is fine if all your top earners stay fit but an awful lot of them are getting on a bit.

I think we ended up in a similar situation in 2012/13 after a few challenge cup wins and a couple of grand final appearances I think we ended up with an expensive 1-13 but after that there was probably a lack of depth. I don't begrudge any player getting all the money they can because it is a tough sport but in a salary cap sport you have to manage the squad especially if it is an ageing squad.

Wigan have managed this really well when you look at the players they have let go (Gildart, Sutton, Bateman, Smithies, KPP) but they have managed to replace them. I think we have a better balance now but it probably did need the clear out under Powell. We were all questioning letting Daryl Clark go but you can't allow yourself to have too much cap tied up with a small proportion of your squad.

Lots of good points in there. If you are going to give a contract to Knowles or Lees, however, you should be pricing in the fact they will spend a third of each season out suspended.

Re: TV games (not Wire) : Sun Aug 25, 2024 8:57 am  

Deus Dat Incrementum wrote:

There is no doubt that Saints have had a terrible run with injuries but also poor discipline has meant a number of suspensions that has compounded the problem.
No matter how good our coaching staff are the "next man up" can only go so far and I think we would have struggled given a similar situation.

I think the problem for saints has been their success combined with an ageing squad.
The success means inevitable contract increases as the likes of Welsby, Dodd, Knowles, Lees etc would have had big increases for saints to keep them. Their success has made them move away from their model of if we can't afford them we let them go. So players like Luke Thompson or Bentley, Fages and Coote were let go because they had Lees, Bachelor, welsby and Dodd. It wouldn't surprise me if most of them were now on bigger contracts that the players that left. This means that there is less to go round the rest of the squad which is why you see players like Ritson. So I think the gap between the top earners and the lower paid players is bigger and so is the quality.
That is fine if all your top earners stay fit but an awful lot of them are getting on a bit.

I think we ended up in a similar situation in 2012/13 after a few challenge cup wins and a couple of grand final appearances I think we ended up with an expensive 1-13 but after that there was probably a lack of depth. I don't begrudge any player getting all the money they can because it is a tough sport but in a salary cap sport you have to manage the squad especially if it is an ageing squad.

Wigan have managed this really well when you look at the players they have let go (Gildart, Sutton, Bateman, Smithies, KPP) but they have managed to replace them. I think we have a better balance now but it probably did need the clear out under Powell. We were all questioning letting Daryl Clark go but you can't allow yourself to have too much cap tied up with a small proportion of your squad.

Good post.

Just to highlight Clark…
Not me. The guy was constantly missing 3 weeks or so through daft injuries.
My view at the time, and still is, as I said with Hill and others, better to lose a player a season to early, than a season too late.

Anyways

Saints I reckon they a large chunk of their cap wrapped up in ‘season too late-ers.
I’m pretty sure the likes of Lomax, Warmsley Clark would have been shafted out of a Wigan club 2 seasons ago, and ours a season ago.

Is giving Clark a 3 year deal, to hastily fill the void of Roby, who also played a season too long, an act of red mist from Mike Rush?

Re: TV games (not Wire) : Sun Aug 25, 2024 10:09 am  

Wellens' post match comments were interesting, questioning if the older players have now had too much success. A Saints coach basically questioning the desire of his contemporaries who he played alongside, effectively saying they might not give a stuff anymore, a week after getting himself a new coaching deal? That's pretty shocking.

Re: TV games (not Wire) : Sun Aug 25, 2024 10:12 am  

rubber duckie wrote:

Good post.

Just to highlight Clark…
Not me. The guy was constantly missing 3 weeks or so through daft injuries.
My view at the time, and still is, as I said with Hill and others, better to lose a player a season to early, than a season too late.

Anyways

Saints I reckon they a large chunk of their cap wrapped up in ‘season too late-ers.
I’m pretty sure the likes of Lomax, Warmsley Clark would have been shafted out of a Wigan club 2 seasons ago, and ours a season ago.

Is giving Clark a 3 year deal, to hastily fill the void of Roby, who also played a season too long, an act of red mist from Mike Rush?

I said this when we let Clark go. They were looking to replace one old head with another, hoping for a like for like replacement and it never happened. Clark has had too many injuries at this point and we were shrewd not to fight against the deal. You look at what Walker brings with his pace and kicking game and we're all the more healthier for having him as our 9.

Re: TV games (not Wire) : Sun Aug 25, 2024 10:41 am  

Saddened hasn’t been on here for a while….

[Fantastic Mr Catpiss]

Re: TV games (not Wire) : Sun Aug 25, 2024 1:15 pm  

matt_wire wrote:

Wellens' post match comments were interesting, questioning if the older players have now had too much success. A Saints coach basically questioning the desire of his contemporaries who he played alongside, effectively saying they might not give a stuff anymore, a week after getting himself a new coaching deal? That's pretty shocking.

It's all a poop fest, a 12 month extension shows the board aren't confident in wellens, that's easy to pay off.

Wellens throwing his players under the bus publicly isn't a good look.

Re: TV games (not Wire) : Sun Aug 25, 2024 1:22 pm  

Fantastic Mr Catpiss wrote:

It's all a poop fest, a 12 month extension shows the board aren't confident in wellens, that's easy to pay off.

Wellens throwing his players under the bus publicly isn't a good look.

Cracking viewing for us 'neutrals', though!

[Fantastic Mr Catpiss]

Re: TV games (not Wire) : Sun Aug 25, 2024 2:03 pm  

matt_wire wrote:

Cracking viewing for us 'neutrals', though!

Indeed,