Re: Imagine : Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:54 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

I suppose an argument to that is that as a youngster, unless you are exceptional in say a Sculthorpe or Shaun Edwards type of way, then you are going to expect to be shunted about and for it to take a while to become a 'regular'?

None of the names you mention have ever put together a consistent run of 5 or 6 good SL level performances - Thewlis, probably the best from your list, still shows signs of being a rookie at times.

Admittedly, the progress of these lads will always be erratic as long as the senior players continue to underperform. It's always a bit of a catch 22, in that young players will develop quicker in a confident, winning side, than in a side on a run like we have been.

Wrench has shown more in 5 games he’s played in than Matautia has in 2 years.

Re: Imagine : Sun Jul 16, 2023 1:10 pm  

Lord Tony Smith wrote:

Wrench has shown more in 5 games he’s played in than Matautia has in 2 years.

Do you really think so?... I think he looks like he has a lot of potential and in the right environment I think he can kick on to be a good SL player, but I think it's still a big ask to be relying on him - there has to be a balance of not exposing these lads and expecting too much from them too quickly.

Like I say, in a side that's performing better, then I can see an argument for him being in the side regularly, but presently, there is a risk of him being dragged down as the side misfires. Whether we like to admit it or not, a couple of errors and this forum and the terraces would soon be on his back.

Re: Imagine : Sun Jul 16, 2023 1:23 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

Whether we like to admit it or not, a couple of errors and this forum and the terraces would soon be on his back.

That's true, and the piece I quoted from on Dodds said the same thing - Saints fans were on his back demanding he be dropped.

But the Saints coaching team stood firm
They backed him, they put an arm round his shoulder
They protected him

Us? Slag Dean off in a press conference and drop Wrench/Thewliss for Minikin at the first opportunity.

And at the same time describe the "performances" of Dudson and Matautia as class, and deem them updroppable despite damning stats.

It takes some balls from the coach to make brave decisions - and therein lies the problem generally.

Re: Imagine : Sun Jul 16, 2023 1:24 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

Do you really think so?... I think he looks like he has a lot of potential and in the right environment I think he can kick on to be a good SL player, but I think it's still a big ask to be relying on him - there has to be a balance of not exposing these lads and expecting too much from them too quickly.

Like I say, in a side that's performing better, then I can see an argument for him being in the side regularly, but presently, there is a risk of him being dragged down as the side misfires. Whether we like to admit it or not, a couple of errors and this forum and the terraces would soon be on his back.

Yeah he has pace, good hands, a quick turn of foot and he’s only going to get better. I genuinely cannot recall one game in the time he’s been here where Matautia has stood out. Everytime I watch him his handling is poor, he doesn’t assist or create, he doesn’t score tries, has no pace, he’s lazy in defence. I think he’s genuinely one of the worst players we have signed in the SL era.

Not me, there has to be a realisation, the same with Thewlis and Dean that these players are still young and still learning and they’ll be mistakes and a lack of inexperience along the way. You cannot however use that same arguement for ‘one of the leaders’ Matautia when he charges out the line or goes for the wrong defender like he did on Friday night to gift Wigan a couple of tries.

Re: Imagine : Sun Jul 16, 2023 1:38 pm  

If I had the choice between wrench matautia it would be wrench all year long..agree the young uns will make mistakes but some of the more experienced members of our team are making more..

Re: Imagine : Sun Jul 16, 2023 1:50 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

.
Like I say, in a side that's performing better, then I can see an argument for him being in the side regularly, but presently, there is a risk of him being dragged down as the side misfires. Whether we like to admit it or not, a couple of errors and this forum and the terraces would soon be on his back.

Thewlis and Wrench have already made a "couple of errors" and people are still calling for them to be in the team so your sweeping statement is wrong. In my experience our fans love a youngster giving it a go and trying to win a spot. Admittedly the "home grown newness" wears off after a couple of years a la Dec Patton and they end up having their performances discussed and even criticised.

I think you'll be hard pushed to find anyone who would want Minikin and Matautia back should Thewliss and Wrench have a couple of off matches on the bounce. They can't play any worse for Pete's sake (pun intended)

Admittedly they haven't been dropped for Wigan, they are/were injured so mute point for recent match, but sentiment stands for Powell's tenure.

Re: Imagine : Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:55 pm  

morrisseyisawire wrote:

That's true, and the piece I quoted from on Dodds said the same thing - Saints fans were on his back demanding he be dropped.

But the Saints coaching team stood firm
They backed him, they put an arm round his shoulder
They protected him

Us? Slag Dean off in a press conference and drop Wrench/Thewliss for Minikin at the first opportunity.

And at the same time describe the "performances" of Dudson and Matautia as class, and deem them updroppable despite damning stats.

It takes some balls from the coach to make brave decisions - and therein lies the problem generally.

I agree with what you are saying, but its a lot easier being a youngster going into a side at a club with an established record of winning trophies and of blooding and developing young players, than it is at a club where fans are absolutely desperate for success and to have just a couple of young players they can get excited about.

Our problem is that we want every young player who pops up to be the next big thing and that expectation leads to unnecessary pressure, on both the player and for the club in how to handle them.

At clubs like Wigan and Saints, they can simply point to the fans and say look at our record and trust the system - We, sadly, don't have that to fall back on.

[Uncle Rico]

Re: Imagine : Sun Jul 16, 2023 3:03 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

I agree with what you are saying, but its a lot easier being a youngster going into a side at a club with an established record of winning trophies and of blooding and developing young players, than it is at a club where fans are absolutely desperate for success and to have just a couple of young players they can get excited about.

Our problem is that we want every young player who pops up to be the next big thing and that expectation leads to unnecessary pressure, on both the player and for the club in how to handle them.

At clubs like Wigan and Saints, they can simply point to the fans and say look at our record and trust the system - We, sadly, don't have that to fall back on.

Well I think with your last paragraph you've hit your own nail on your own head because our record doesn't stand up to theirs.

So what do we do then learn from it try and emulate or toss it off for players who aren't even journeymen IMO

Re: Imagine : Sun Jul 16, 2023 3:10 pm  

Matautia or Wrench? There's no need for a debate, as only one of those two should have a future at our club.

Re: Imagine : Sun Jul 16, 2023 3:14 pm  

Uncle Rico wrote:

Well I think with your last paragraph you've hit your own nail on your own head because our record doesn't stand up to theirs.

So what do we do then learn from it try and emulate or toss it off for players who aren't even journeymen IMO

Of course you try and emulate them. My point was it's easier to respond to critical fans if you have a proven record that the young players will come good, as is the case with criticism that Dodd was getting from Saints fans - We don't really have that record, do we?