Saints Away. : Tue May 10, 2016 11:35 am  

So, we travel to St Helens this coming Friday. With both teams having disastrous Challenge Cup exits, both teams priorities will be no doubt wanting to put in an improved performance to get back into the cogs of the SuperLeague rat race. Saints are nowhere near playing and defending to their full potential or anything like their renowned reputation, however, they can easily go the length of the field at the drop of a hat having such quality strike players within their ranks of their squad,

Salford, on the other hand, has serious defensive vulnerabilities at present, which unfortunately means we have to rely enormously upon our attacking endeavours to outscore our lapsed leakages, which puts huge pressure on our halfbacks and backline. We're very capable of scoring in high figures, however, having to sustain a high scoring amount each week due to our fragile foundations in defence, makes it a huge task for any side nevermind Salford. I can only see another high-scoring free for all, with Saints coming away with the Two points.

Re: Saints Away. : Tue May 10, 2016 12:14 pm  

Another RL site expresses it well: re Saints "Given the context, and the opposition, the game against Salford is an opportunity. An opportunity to bounce back from last week’s disaster, an opportunity to avenge their embarrassment at the expense of Salford earlier in the year and an opportunity to get their season back on track. Nothing less than victory will appease the rising frustration levels of the fans, and should the team fail to reach the expectations set, the consequences could be catastrophic." http://www.totalrl.com/where-do-saints-go-from-here/ I am more worried about our hooking choices than the defence. The defence issue will take time to solve (and maybe another signing or two) but we need to look at the hooker options now.

Another RL site expresses it well: re Saints "Given the context, and the opposition, the game against Salford is an opportunity. An opportunity to bounce back from last week’s disaster, an opportunity to avenge their embarrassment at the expense of Salford earlier in the year and an opportunity to get their season back on track. Nothing less than victory will appease the rising frustration levels of the fans, and should the team fail to reach the expectations set, the consequences could be catastrophic." http://www.totalrl.com/where-do-saints-go-from-here/ I am more worried about our hooking choices than the defence. The defence issue will take time to solve (and maybe another signing or two) but we need to look at the hooker options now.

Re: Saints Away. : Tue May 10, 2016 12:23 pm  

I would really want to see Wilkinson get a go as to be honest we really haven't got much to leave. I'm pretty sure we won't make the 8 which leaves us fighting out in the Qualifiers again which we should walk.

Re: Saints Away. : Tue May 10, 2016 12:50 pm  

TwistTheMellonMan wrote:

I would really want to see Wilkinson get a go as to be honest we really haven't got much to leave. I'm pretty sure we won't make the 8 which leaves us fighting out in the Qualifiers again which we should walk.

Yep, I can see your point, the players are playing like they've given up, so why not throw some deserved youngster a bite at the cherry. I'd rather watch an enthusiastic youngster than a disinterested senior primadonna. Any day of the week.

Re: Saints Away. : Tue May 10, 2016 1:00 pm  

FLAT STANLEY wrote:

Yep, I can see your point, the players are playing like they've given up, so why not throw some deserved youngster a bite at the cherry. I'd rather watch an enthusiastic youngster than a disinterested senior primadonna. Any day of the week.

Same with me, went and watched Bibby on Sunday playing for Crusaders and he gave more in attack and defence playing for a team he wasn't part of then any but maybe Sau did on Saturday.

Re: Saints Away. : Tue May 10, 2016 1:02 pm  

Hillbilly_Red wrote:

I am more worried about our hooking choices than the defence. The defence issue will take time to solve (and maybe another signing or two) but we need to look at the hooker options now.

HillBillyRed, I'm sure Tim and Ian will be more worried about our defensive collapses collectively rather than our individual Hooking personnel if you sort out the collective defensive issues, it'll probably solve the Hooker situation outright for one game at least.

Re: Saints Away. : Tue May 10, 2016 4:11 pm  

"if you sort out the collective defensive issues, it'll probably solve the Hooker situation outright for one game at least"

polite comments
Sadly I disagree: one issue is our hookers defending so strongly: Lee and Tomkins stand out in their willingness to tackle and I'm sure this tires them more than we need. The Alker methodolgy is past: hookers have to be part of the defence but also need to think quickly so gaps are exploited. So the man mountains in the centre are becoming out-moded. They cannot be so tired.

Then again, if we could move up quicker and prevent passes and cheap yards, then the opposition would be on a back-foot and the hookers could set up faster moves. So the defence may help the hookers. But the defensive line I witnessed at the last two games, and the need for three players to stop any opposition forward, suggests a quick fix is not going to work. In fact, I think it could make it worse. I am not complaining about commitment. Several players try too hard when it begins to turn against us: they try to do so much and leave gaps, duplicate tackling around the ball-arm, rush around to get into the tackles and so tire themselves and lose the tactical plan. Every game has periods when we will be looking to be in the ascendant and periods when the opposition will be. We are very guilty of not building on the former and panicking in the latter.
Then again, by on large, we have a young squad. So work on that. We miss Morley here. Let's get back to basics and the tactical plan, not change it too much.

The Saints side we saw at the AJB and on telly the week after were not trusting each other when running back to take up the defensive line: it was obvious they lacked confidence. Both ourselves and the Aussies were able to exploit this by finding gaps as players moved out of their position to where they thought they could compensate. Salford could do the same.

Re: Saints Away. : Wed May 11, 2016 11:59 am  

Sorry 'HBR', but are you saying that basically, our fragile defensive lapses are solely due to our problematic concoction issue at Hooker? I totally disagree, If you review the fixtures we've played this season with the exception of Castleford last week you'd see that the Hooking role wasn't the key indicator for these defensive lapses.

Hull Away - Lee, Tomkins.= 42 points
St Helens Home - Lee Tomkins = 10 points
Widnes Home - Lee, Tomkins = 20 points
Wigan Away. Lee, Tomkins, = 20 points
Warrington Home - Lee, Tomkins = 31 points
Castleford Away = Lee, Tomkins = 16 points
Hull KR Away - Lee, Tomkins = 42 points
Catalans Home - Tomkins, Joseph = 26 points
Huddersfield Away - Tomkins, Wood = 24 points
Wakefield Away - Tomkins, Wood = 32 points
Leeds Home - Tomkins, Wood = 10 points
Hunslet Away - Wood, = 14 points
Catalans Away - Tomkins, Wood = 42 points
Hull KR Home - Lee, Tomkins = 26 points
Castleford Away - Joseph = 32 points

Overall points against this season so far = 391 points averaging 26 points per game
Average points against with Lee and Tomkins playing = 207 points = Averaging 25.87 points per game.
Average points with 1 x Recognized Hooker in Tomkins = 134 points. = Averaging 26.8 points per game
Average points without any recognized Hookers = 46 points which = Averaging 23 points per game.
So your absent Hooker theory doesn't comply with the defensive statistics HBR. It's a collective defense issue.

Re: Saints Away. : Wed May 11, 2016 12:55 pm  

NO
I stated that the hookers are doing too much defending (against Leeds, I frequentlysaw the two hookers chase out of position to join a tackle) which is not helping our attack.
I feel our defenses have been poor but I wonder if this is down to "Several players try too hard when it begins to turn against us: they try to do so much and leave gaps, duplicate tackling around the ball-arm, rush around to get into the tackles and so tire themselves and lose the tactical plan. Every game has periods when we will be looking to be in the ascendant and periods when the opposition will be. We are very guilty of not building on the former and panicking in the latter."

And if it is, then we're not going to cure that in a week or two.

Re: Saints Away. : Wed May 11, 2016 2:06 pm  

Hillbilly_Red wrote:

NO
I stated that the hookers are doing too much defending (against Leeds, I frequently saw the two hookers chase out of position to join a tackle) which is not helping our attack.

Fair enough but, I don't understand your logic.How does the former affect the latter? Also with the "Hooker'' joining the tackle, how do you know that this isn't the tactical ploys wanted by the coaching staff. Tim and Ian's whole defensive structure may hinge on three men tackling, therefore if, there's a two men tackle in progress, then Tim and Ian will want the third man in ASAP Especially against an offloading team like Leeds because our whole defensive structure may be based on a three men in the tackle, this is how structured defence's work, it's definitely not off the cuff like many people think.it is.

Hillbillyred Wrote: I feel our defenses have been poor but I wonder if this is down to "Several players try too hard when it begins to turn against us: they try to do so much and leave gaps, duplicate tackling around the ball-arm, rush around to get into the tackles and so tire themselves and lose the tactical plan

I agree, the defence is woefully poor, but I don't think it's down to trying to hard. Poor Concentration, Communication, and just out and out, pure lack of enthusiasm to me, looks the main contributor to our downfall.

Hillbillyred Wrote. Every game has periods when we will be looking to be in the ascendant and periods when the opposition will be. We are very guilty of not building on the former and panicking in the latter."

Pendulum swingers is a huge factor in our game, and you're quite right highlighting yet another calamitous trait that we're vulnerable of continuously. How many times can you recall complete balls up at a Kick-off resulting in a penalty turnover, again this tells me that concentration is a real bug bear within the squad.