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Re: Superleague re-structure Sun May 09, 2021 4:36 am  

User avatarThetalentboy wrote:
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Donnyman wrote:
They attracted the "crowds" by putting on a Free beer festival and leaving the gates open for anyone to wander in. As was reported many people in the ground didn't leave the beer tents. As was reported fans from here who went doubted the crowd size anyway. Your not a WUM of course but you do get some things quite wrong.

If they had all these massive paying crowds how come they lost £30Million?

Huddersfield offered free tickets for a game and it hardly boosted the crowd at all

We do a few games with cheap tickets in the past and it doesn't make much difference really

People won't attend something they don't like whether it's free or not

Toronto proved they could get 8,000 through the gates.... How Many super league clubs would get them crowds in league 1?.... None is the answer
Re: Superleague re-structure Sun May 09, 2021 7:20 am  

Donnyman wrote:
Donnyman Free-scoring winger
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Thetalentboy wrote:

People won't attend something they don't like whether it's free or not

Toronto proved they could get 8,000 through the gates.... How Many super league clubs would get them crowds in league 1?.... None is the answer


They didn't verify the 8,000 you claim. But even 4,000 may have been a very good attendance for a free Rugby league game and a Free Beer festival.

But why as an established sensible poster are you even been drawn down the "crowds" line??

Right from the start Eric Perez spoke about his ambition for the TWP club and his desire to meet the criteria set them for entry to the game here. Perez fully acknowledged the club were required to develop North American players (and they actually did have several such players). However after year one they sacked the north american players off. There was no excuse for this as there are some good North American players playing league, they have played in RL World cups.

Perez fully acknowledged the need to get paying Canadian TV deals and he promised this from the start trying to sell his show in which Grid iron players would bid to convert to League and sign for the Wolfpack.

Nowhere but nowhere was the criteria for success "crowds" but you obviously fell for that, and of course Perez constantly peddled the massive crowds idea and TWP even went on to count the unverified thousands of "Eyeballs" i,e, alleged fans who avidly followed TWP over the internet and social media.

This "expansion club" was so successful it alleged it had hundreds of thousands of followers across the globe never mind "8.000" in the ground

You can find Perez agreeing to develop NA players and find Canadian TV money in his Dave Woods Interview on you tube. The "Crowds" argument was as phoney as the club and the reality was TWP failed to achieve anything they actually agreed to achieve.
Last edited by Donnyman on Sun May 09, 2021 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Superleague re-structure Sun May 09, 2021 7:38 am  

Donnyman wrote:
Donnyman Free-scoring winger
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Thetalentboy wrote:

Toronto proved they could get 8,000 through the gates.



And onto the way in which they decided to just dump the club.

David Argyle is a Billionaire and remains so, so money was never an object albeit he had a penchant for not paying his bills. He ran up about £30Million in bills proving transatlantic RL was not financially viable. He was not that interested either as his real personal aim was to own or part own an NRL club.

His "out" once he got bored with it all and realised the SL bosses did not want his circus, was to just walk away owing that massive debt with all his apologists claiming he had been financially wiped out by Covid. Funny thing is his large stakes in the Brazilian Potash mines remained unaffected as the Brazilian president didn't shut down the Brazilian economy, but I suppose the excuse suited people who didn't want the fact, that these phonies had taken RL for a ride to reflect badly on the game here.

So how is a phoney Ottawa Aces going to do it without a $$Billionairre??
Re: Superleague re-structure Sun May 09, 2021 7:50 am  

Donnyman wrote:
Donnyman Free-scoring winger
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Posts: 2111
Thetalentboy wrote:

Huddersfield offered free tickets for a game and it hardly boosted the crowd at all



So Huddersfield should not be allowed in Superleague then?

The final reality is there would be no Superleague without a bunch of down and out useless, never heard of small northern towns providing clubs into a regional league.

That enough northern investors, invest in enough northern clubs, who develop quality players, with enough northern fans to make these clubs professional and attractive to TV deals on the terrestrial and other channels is why we have RL in this country in the first place.

If you don't think Davey and Fartown are up to it then fine, kick 'em out......
Re: Superleague re-structure Sun May 09, 2021 9:01 am  
Ornery Optimist Silver RLFANS Member
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Donnyman wrote:

Right from the start Eric Perez spoke about his ambition for the TWP club and his desire to meet the criteria set them for entry to the game here. Perez fully acknowledged the club were required to develop North American players (and they actually did have several such players). However after year one they sacked the north american players off. There was no excuse for this as there are some good North American players playing league, they have played in RL World cups.

Perez fully acknowledged the need to get paying Canadian TV deals and he promised this from the start trying to sell his show in which Grid iron players would bid to convert to League and sign for the Wolfpack.



You do recall that Perez left Toronto after about a year to not only start up Ottawa but to help out a M62 that was a repeat offender for not paying,don't you?

How do you think Super League should re - structure? This thread is about that...

Do you think the serial offenders,situated along the M62 corridor, for their numerous on and off field offences,are assisting with youngsters participation, and any future broadcast deal? As they have broken the salary cap twice,will the re-structure do away with a salary cap?
As the serial offending club seem to have problems with the players they sign from elsewhere should clubs be limited to players born and raised within a certain distance? Should the governing body run academies,thereby saving clubs money,and from there the players go to different clubs on a draft basis?
What is the future,other then you banging on with your flawed facts about overseas clubs?
No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.
Re: Superleague re-structure Sun May 09, 2021 1:03 pm  

User avatarwrencat1873 wrote:
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Donnyman wrote:

You can find Perez agreeing to develop NA players and find Canadian TV money in his Dave Woods Interview on you tube. The "Crowds" argument was as phoney as the club and the reality was TWP failed to achieve anything they actually agreed to achieve.


Perez did say that Toronto would develop Canadian players and, waived their "share" of Sky monies, suggesting that they would have their own TV deal in N. America.
The failure to secure this deal harmed only Toronto and it had ZERO effect on the other SL clubs.

However, inflated or not, their crowds in League 1 and the Championship were excellent, especially for a new club in new territory.
It's not even an argument, it's plain black and white fact.

You talk about crowds "not being verified" but, NOBODY verifies their crowds. Why on earth should they, just as long as they pay the relevant tax to the authorities and share the gate money in fixtures demand it.

You do know that Toronto are no longer in SL ??

Should be interesting to see whether the proposed restructure has any positive benefit on the next tv deal in a couple of years time, especially with just one overseas club in the mix (unless Toulouse gain promotion and or Catalan are relegated0.
Re: Superleague re-structure Sun May 09, 2021 9:32 pm  

User avatarorangeman wrote:
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I'm still amazed anyone is debating Toronto Wolfpack at all.
There is no debate.
They came, they saw, they folded.
A rich mans folly that only the over zealous RL bigots applauded.

Anyone who dared question their existence was ostracized or accused of being a troll, but as these right minded people pointed out, the club was built on foundations of sand and they vanished without trace.
I rarely purchase any RL print media ay more because it's become a polarised cult like medium, that preaches to the choir. It is such an attitude that holds the game back in my opinion as it makes us look very insular and "clique-like" and therefore unattractive to both new fans and new investors.
Anyway. As I said earlier. 20 teams over 2 divisions, with TV revenue allocated dependant on finishing positions. If Wakefield or Castleford want to remain in their stadiums, let them. If Clubs like London are happy to be reliant on a single benefactor for survival, so be it, but stop pandering to clubs and put the game first.
If Leeds can afford to spend to the cap because they have the fan income, then great and if an Argyle type benefactor wants to bankroll a club, then so be it....but let's get back to talking about the Game and not the friggin structure of the organisation. I don't support the NZ Warriors and London Broncos just so I can whine about the NRL/RFL.....I'd rather whine about how crap the teams are doing :D
Re: Superleague re-structure Sun May 09, 2021 11:14 pm  

The Silent H wrote:
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Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:45 am
Posts: 505
Thetalentboy wrote:
Huddersfield offered free tickets for a game and it hardly boosted the crowd at all

We do a few games with cheap tickets in the past and it doesn't make much difference really

People won't attend something they don't like whether it's free or not

Toronto proved they could get 8,000 through the gates.... How Many super league clubs would get them crowds in league 1?.... None is the answer

That hit a nerve with a regular poster.

But you're right, every club does it and it's not a bad thing.
Re: Superleague re-structure Mon May 10, 2021 6:10 am  

Donnyman wrote:
Donnyman Free-scoring winger
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Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:28 am
Posts: 2111
wrencat1873 wrote:

Perez did say that Toronto would develop Canadian players and, waived their "share" of Sky monies, suggesting that they would have their own TV deal in N. America.
The failure to secure this deal harmed only Toronto and it had ZERO effect on the other SL clubs.

Should be interesting to see whether the proposed restructure has any positive benefit on the next tv deal in a couple of years time, especially with just one overseas club in the mix (unless Toulouse gain promotion and or Catalan are relegated0.


"Zero effect on other clubs"

Please don't bother replying if you have to make stuff up like this. The phoney club who failed to achieve their own targets for Superlague took the place of London Broncos in Superleague, and reduced the footprint of the professional game here back to the M62.

So called "expansionists" didn't bat an eyelid at that because they were never "Expansionists" just a small number of noisy people bored with English Rugby League, or wums just stirring things up, continually heralding the need to bring more phoney clubs in like Ottawa.

Let me once again let you have the facts. When Perez promised the TV money he promised it straight away by selling the rights to their search for RL talent amongst grid iron players.

When that didn't happen and when TWP could not get a paying TV deal for their actual matches, Perez was challenged openly. The slippery salesman answer was that he would not be able to get a massive North American deal if there was only one NA club in Superleague. He said that it would need at least FIVE north American clubs in Superleague to provide the content to attract American TV stations.

Frightened to death of a public row, the SL bosses said nothing as Perez lined up Ottawa, and Wilby lined up New York,

But the bottom line here was WUMS and blind so called "expansionists" didn't get it that once the English content of Superleage fell below 10 English clubs the SKY deal became null and void......

You may genuinely think Ottawa, Catalans, Toulouse, New York and TWP would have been a great thing, but this meant ramping up costs and losses across thie Transatlantic league and in addition losing the only TV deal available to the game here. You still keep calling this sort of thing "expansion" why??

Expansion is more pro players and more TV money, even Perez made that clear in his original interview....
Re: Superleague re-structure Mon May 10, 2021 6:34 am  

Donnyman wrote:
Donnyman Free-scoring winger
Free-scoring winger

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:28 am
Posts: 2111
orangeman wrote:

1. I'm still amazed anyone is debating Toronto Wolfpack at all. There is no debate. They came, they saw, they folded. A rich mans folly that only the over zealous RL bigots applauded.

Anyone who dared question their existence was ostracized or accused of being a troll, but as these right minded people pointed out, the club was built on foundations of sand and they vanished without trace.
I rarely purchase any RL print media ay more because it's become a polarised cult like medium, that preaches to the choir. It is such an attitude that holds the game back in my opinion as it makes us look very insular and "clique-like" and therefore unattractive to both new fans and new investors.
Anyway. As I said earlier. 20 teams over 2 divisions, with TV revenue allocated dependant on finishing positions. If Wakefield or Castleford want to remain in their stadiums, let them. If Clubs like London are happy to be reliant on a single benefactor for survival, so be it, but stop pandering to clubs and put the game first.
If Leeds can afford to spend to the cap because they have the fan income, then great and if an Argyle type benefactor wants to bankroll a club, then so be it....but let's get back to talking about the Game and not the friggin structure of the organisation. I don't support the NZ Warriors and London Broncos just so I can whine about the NRL/RFL.....I'd rather whine about how crap the teams are doing :D


1. I was generally OK with the excitement this all brought, and of course we had a third division of the League here that was made for expansion clubs. TWP should have persevered within this league playing (and paying) North American players. Imagine having the National USA team playing in Superleague - what was not to like?

2. But the alarm bells rang when they were all sacked off and TWP were allowed to forget player development. At that time IIRC we were into allowing Championship clubs to spend large amounts of money. So TWP did just that announcing they were aiming for SL. SL didn't say much and bottled it when TWP bought promotion only for it to explode in their faces when Lenegan's own London Broncos who had had a decent 2019 season back in SL, and had picked up 10 great wins, were tossed aside for a phoney club.

3. Bottom line was nobody had the leadership or bottle to just call this rubbish out, and shamefully they all publicly allowed some clown to take over TWP and re-apply for Superleague. I keep taking the stance that for this next TV deal Lenegan & Superleague will have learnt their lesson and will now have the bottle to do the right thing and provide SKY with an English League, in which if they want real "expansion" they will put London and Newcastle in it, along with our best M62 clubs.

Maybe the Broncos move to Wimbledon says they will?
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Betfred Super League XXVI ROUND : 9
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Catalans 9 268 142 126 16 188.73 88.89
St.Helens 8 206 70 136 14 294.29 87.50
Wigan 8 158 136 22 14 116.18 87.50
Warrington 9 302 157 145 13 192.36 72.22
Hull FC 9 179 143 36 11 125.17 61.11
Hull KR 9 223 204 19 10 109.31 55.56
 
Castleford 9 185 232 -47 8 79.74 44.44
Leeds 8 150 136 14 6 110.29 37.50
Huddersfield 8 150 162 -12 6 92.59 37.50
Wakefield 9 163 231 -68 4 70.56 22.22
Salford 9 106 289 -183 2 36.68 11.11
Leigh 9 134 322 -188 0 41.61 0
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Betfred Championship 2021 ROUND : 9
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Toulouse 6 291 58 233 12 501.72 100
Featherstone 7 262 76 186 14 344.74 100
Bradford 8 228 172 56 14 132.56 87.50
Batley 7 204 140 64 10 145.71 71.43
LondonB 8 202 194 8 9 104.12 56.25
Halifax 8 241 129 112 8 186.82 50
 
York 8 213 150 63 8 142 50
Sheffield 9 211 249 -38 8 84.74 44.44
Widnes 8 204 239 -35 7 85.36 43.75
Dewsbury 7 103 171 -68 6 60.23 42.86
Whitehaven 8 140 254 -114 5 55.12 31.25
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Newcastle 7 132 216 -84 3 61.11 21.43
Swinton 8 122 309 -187 0 39.48 0
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Workington 5 180 94 86 8 191.49 80
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Keighley 5 158 135 23 4 117.04 40
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Crusaders 5 122 150 -28 4 81.33 40
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St.HelensW 3 230 6 224 6 3,833.33 100
LeedsW 3 214 22 192 6 972.73 100
WiganW 3 158 18 140 6 877.78 100
CastlefordW 3 104 24 80 6 433.33 100
YorkW 3 76 102 -26 2 74.51 33.33
Hudds W 3 38 178 -140 2 21.35 33.33
 
FeatherstoneW 4 74 164 -90 2 45.12 25
BradfordW 4 60 180 -120 2 33.33 25
Wire W 3 42 146 -104 0 28.77 0
WakefieldW 3 16 172 -156 0 9.30 0
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