Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:32 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

The answer is in the first 4 words of your question.

So the answer to If the RFL state they have sold 40k tickets for the final, and nobody produces any evidence at all which casts doubt on that, why would I conclude anything other than the RFL have sold 40k tickets for the final?

is If the RFL state

Is English your first language?

Regardless, if you want to state the RFL are lying, you should probably provide some evidence for it, otherwise its a claim no more credible than they have sold all the tickets to Nosey, the dolphin who played snowflake in Ace Ventura

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:56 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

So the answer to If the RFL state they have sold 40k tickets for the final, and nobody produces any evidence at all which casts doubt on that, why would I conclude anything other than the RFL have sold 40k tickets for the final?

is If the RFL state

Is English your first language?

Regardless, if you want to state the RFL are lying, you should probably provide some evidence for it, otherwise its a claim no more credible than they have sold all the tickets to Nosey, the dolphin who played snowflake in Ace Ventura

Again, you don't read do you? ( Can you?)

I have not stated that the RFL are lying, and they are almost certainly not lying - why would they? What I *am* saying, is that I'd like to know what the definition of 'sale' is in this case, and I am a little skeptical ( a little, not totally, just a little ) that the RFL's definition of 'sale' is the same as yours. There are perfectly valid reasons, as others have stated, for at least raising an eyebrow at some of the numbers, but more than that, if for example, we knew that 'sale' definitely *didn't* include those which have just been bought by travel companies, that really would be excellent news.

Out of interest, what do you think? Do you think the figures include distributions to travel firms, or are you confident that each 'sale' definitely represents a bum-on-seat?

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:10 am  

RLBandit wrote:

Again, you don't read do you? ( Can you?)

I have not stated that the RFL are lying, and they are almost certainly not lying - why would they? What I *am* saying, is that I'd like to know what the definition of 'sale' is in this case, and I am a little skeptical ( a little, not totally, just a little ) that the RFL's definition of 'sale' is the same as yours. There are perfectly valid reasons, as others have stated, for at least raising an eyebrow at some of the numbers, but more than that, if for example, we knew that 'sale' definitely *didn't* include those which have just been bought by travel companies, that really would be excellent news.

Out of interest, what do you think? Do you think the figures include distributions to travel firms, or are you confident that each 'sale' definitely represents a bum-on-seat?

If you have some evidence of your wild speculation, provide it. If not then it can be treated with the respect it deserves and roundly ignored. As, up to this point, you have provided absolutely 0 evidence that this anything more than your imagination, I see no reason whatsoever to believe it is a realistic possibility that the ‘sales’ talked about don’t correspond to a sale of a ticket.

If some evidence is forthcoming then that standpoint can be re-addressed, until that point it is the only sensible or logical one to hold.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:50 am  

William Eve wrote:

... The jury is still out on what exactly? I merely responded to your suggestion that attendances in SL were down by over 12% this year due to the recession (the strain on people's wallets) and that reduction in SL attendances was mainly a consequence of away fans not travelling in the same numbers this year.

Indeed you did and I am less sure about my reasoning there now.

For me, the jury is still out on the reasons for this year's numbers being down (so far) and whether that decline (so far) is just a dip in a saw-tooth line on a graph (although I still think the recession is a likely reason).
It does seem that a decline in home fans' attendance is the main factor when the away team is London or Catalan, so I'm not going to press that point, but we can't be sure, it could be due to the perceived attractiveness or lack of attractiveness of fixtures involving those teams (Catalans away game attendances holding up better than London's) ... which brings us back to season tickets etc and whether the walk-ups are reduced for those games.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:09 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Indeed you did and I am less sure about my reasoning there now.

For me, the jury is still out on the reasons for this year's numbers being down (so far) and whether that decline (so far) is just a dip in a saw-tooth line on a graph (although I still think the recession is a likely reason).

It does seem that a decline in home fans' attendance is the main factor when the away team is London or Catalan, so I'm not going to press that point, but we can't be sure, it could be due to the perceived attractiveness or lack of attractiveness of fixtures involving those teams (Catalans away game attendances holding up better than London's) ... which brings us back to season tickets etc and whether the walk-ups are reduced for those games.

I think there are a number of reasons for the decline in SL attendances this season and the recession is likely to be one of them, though bear in mind we were in recession last year too which recorded the highest SL attendances during the current 14 team era. Other reasons are new stadia at St Helens and Salford but that novelty has worn off with both sets of supporters (Saints fans in particular) not liking their new home at all as it lacks atmosphere. And some SL clubs have started to charge more realistic prices for their season tickets as opposed to the heavily discounted ones - this may account for the huge fall in attendances at Bradford and Huddersfield. I suspect there's been a decline not only in season ticket sales at clubs across the board but also a decline in fans paying on the day. Most SL fans do not value the SL product at the prices charged at the turnstiles, as evidenced by the shocking attendances recorded at SL play-off games and CC rounds in recent years.

I have my own reasons for not attending SL games very often these days... the decline in playing standards, the lack of genuine competition, the unimportance of the regular rounds, the rewarding of mediocrity via licensing, top 8 play-off system and the lack of P&R.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:04 pm  

Attendances at the 4th Round (last 32) stage of the Challenge Cup this year are 13.86% down on the same round last year... 28.22% down compared to 2011... 36.74% down compared to 2010... and 42.98% down compared to 2009.

Challenge Cup Round 4 total attendances comparison (2009 to 2013)
Year....... Total Att... Avg
CC:2013... 38,953... 2,435
CC:2012... 45,219... 2,826
CC:2011... 54,265... 3,392
CC:2010... 61,577... 3,849
CC:2009... 68,315... 4,270

CC 2013 % decrease in attendances
V CC 2012 = -13.86%
V CC 2011 = -28.22%
V CC 2010 = -36.74%
V CC 2009 = -42.98%

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:34 am  

William Eve wrote:

I think there are a number of reasons for the decline in SL attendances this season and the recession is likely to be one of them, though bear in mind we were in recession last year too which recorded the highest SL attendances during the current 14 team era. Other reasons are new stadia at St Helens and Salford but that novelty has worn off with both sets of supporters (Saints fans in particular) not liking their new home at all as it lacks atmosphere. And some SL clubs have started to charge more realistic prices for their season tickets as opposed to the heavily discounted ones - this may account for the huge fall in attendances at Bradford and Huddersfield. I suspect there's been a decline not only in season ticket sales at clubs across the board but also a decline in fans paying on the day. Most SL fans do not value the SL product at the prices charged at the turnstiles, as evidenced by the shocking attendances recorded at SL play-off games and CC rounds in recent years.

I have my own reasons for not attending SL games very often these days... the decline in playing standards, the lack of genuine competition, the unimportance of the regular rounds, the rewarding of mediocrity via licensing, top 8 play-off system and the lack of P&R.

the other factor is the lack of big name overseas imports IMO. While it is good for the game in the long-term to have teams filled with homegrown players...you can't deny that the big name overseas players helped get people through the turnstiles. HullFC have sold thousands of season tickets over the years on the back of overseas big names who were going to come in and change our fortunes.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:41 am  

UllFC wrote:

the other factor is the lack of big name overseas imports IMO. While it is good for the game in the long-term to have teams filled with homegrown players...you can't deny that the big name overseas players helped get people through the turnstiles. HullFC have sold thousands of season tickets over the years on the back of overseas big names who were going to come in and change our fortunes.

It's not overseas players per-se IMO, just 'big-name' players. Of course, these have often tended to be from overseas. This reality - that big names are what puts bums on seats - isn't accepted by defenders of the cap (some who want to see it reduced even further!) They delude themselves that money is 'better spent on marketing'. What they forget is that signing a big name IS money spent on marketing. I'm far more likely to go and watch a team because SBW has signed for them than because I saw a nice poster.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:20 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

It's not overseas players per-se IMO, just 'big-name' players. Of course, these have often tended to be from overseas. This reality - that big names are what puts bums on seats - isn't accepted by defenders of the cap (some who want to see it reduced even further!) They delude themselves that money is 'better spent on marketing'. What they forget is that signing a big name IS money spent on marketing. I'm far more likely to go and watch a team because SBW has signed for them than because I saw a nice poster.

Completely agree with the last two posts. Big names drive the sport forward. We get one sky sports news more, maybe even a mention the the BBC news and boost the name of the sport.

Instead what is actually happening is the big name players are leaving. Look at Wigan alone. In the past couple of years Hoffman, Finch, Lima, Leuluai and Tomkins (Joel) have all left the league, with Mossop, Hock, Tomkins (Sam) rumored to be ready to leave, and others will im sure follow.

Each one of those players is a top notch player. Aussie international, Kiwi International, SoO caps, England Caps and the rest.

This team would be to bad would it, im sure we would all pay money to watch them


1. Sam Tomkins
2. Eastmond
3. Setaimata Sa
4. Joel Tomkins
5. Matt King
6. Finch
7. Tommy L
8. Lima
9. Scott Moore
10. Graham
11. Hoffman
12. Mossop
13. Hock

but we cant afford to have these players stay in our competition.

(before anyone pops up trying to discredit the team saying things like 'scott moore could have stayed' it is just a example of a team of players who on the whole have left/will leave because we couldnt afford them any more, apart from Moore i think that is the case for all those players)

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:07 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

It's not overseas players per-se IMO, just 'big-name' players. Of course, these have often tended to be from overseas. This reality - that big names are what puts bums on seats - isn't accepted by defenders of the cap (some who want to see it reduced even further!) They delude themselves that money is 'better spent on marketing'. What they forget is that signing a big name IS money spent on marketing. I'm far more likely to go and watch a team because SBW has signed for them than because I saw a nice poster.

the solution is maybe to do what Soccer did in America when Beckham went there, and allow a designated player to be counted outside of the salary cap...but I suppose the critics would say that SL clubs are already getting themselves in enough debt without adding an expensive player to their ranks.