Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:29 am  

SmokeyTA wrote:

There aren’t any further facts. Thats why im not worried about them. Its not about swallowing everything I am told, its about not inventing problems in my head and worrying about them. The tickets may be sale or return. They may have all been sold to one really rich guy who likes his space. They may be made of crackers and 40k have been eaten by parrots and this is all a big ruse to hide that fact. But as there is no supporting evidence for any of these possibilities, there is no point worrying about them. <snip>.

Willful ignorance would be fine if your position was neutral. It is not. You tell us that the sale of tickets is Good News, despite admitting that for all you know they may be on a sale or return basis. You can't have it both ways.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:33 am  

RLBandit wrote:

Sold *by* travel companies is fine. "Sold" *to* a travel company isn't the same thing, until the ticket is bought by a fan. It may be. I don't know. It would be good to know. If the 'sales' are in the hands of fans already, excellent news. If a significant number of the 'sales' are just distributions to travel companies, that's not as good. That's why I'm neither criticizing nor applauding the ticket sales to date.

Why would it be good to know? What are you going to do with that information? And why would the RFL release such in-depth detail just to stop you worrying about a problem which you have made up in your head and have no evidence exists?

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:35 am  

RLBandit wrote:

Willful ignorance would be fine if your position was neutral. It is not. You tell us that the sale of tickets is Good News, despite admitting that for all you know they may be on a sale or return basis. You can't have it both ways.

There are an infinite number of problems that could exist that we have no evidence for. Why are you only worried about the one you have invented and have no evidence for and not the multitude of others which could exist but we have no evidence for?

Working with the information we actually have, and ignoring the possibilities we have no evidence for, selling 40k tickets at this stage for the WC final is a good thing.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:21 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

There are an infinite number of problems that could exist that we have no evidence for. Why are you only worried about the one you have invented and have no evidence for and not the multitude of others which could exist but we have no evidence for?

Working with the information we actually have, and ignoring the possibilities we have no evidence for, selling 40k tickets at this stage for the WC final is a good thing.

You're confusing "statement from the RFL" with "information". I think that's where you've generally been going wrong over the years.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:31 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

You're confusing "statement from the RFL" with "information". I think that's where you've generally been going wrong over the years.

and you have a creepy obsession with Nigel Wood and have started imagining things about him and the RFL and arguing they are real. Its disturbing.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:48 pm  

William Eve wrote:

...I appreciate that SmokeyTA is very uncomfortable with 2013 attendance comparisons with last year as he's regularly demonstrated on this thread for the best part of the last three months ...

Well, depends on what you're wanting to find out, I haven't read all 90-odd pages of the thread.
If he's looking for a trend (as I would be), he'd be quite right to be uncomfortable with just comparing with the previous year.
If, however, you want to see whether attendances are down or up this year compared to last. then fine.
But I'm not sure what that proves without at least some reference to longer-term trends anyway.

William Eve wrote:

...Nevertheless, the fact remains that SL home attendances against London & Catalan (who both bring next to no fans to their away games) has shown a significant percentage decrease which mirrors percentage decline in SL attendances overall in 2013 compared to the same fixtures last year.

Yes, true ... but in Catalan's case you could use those numbers to say it shows an upward trend over the last few years.

For me, the jury is still out.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:57 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

and you have a creepy obsession with Nigel Wood and have started imagining things about him and the RFL and arguing they are real. Its disturbing.

Learn to read, or point out where I argue that "some of these sales are not straightforward sales to punters" is not in fact a *possibility* but rather a true fact. I have no idea if they are or they aren't. But your argument that we have great new on ticket sales *does* require you to argue that the RFL's figures are *real* ( i.e. they translate to bums on seats ). Your child-like credulity doesn't make everyone else wrong.


Still confident you're going to win your bet?

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:25 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

Learn to read, or point out where I argue that "some of these sales are not straightforward sales to punters" is not in fact a *possibility* but rather a true fact. I have no idea if they are or they aren't.

exactly, you have made it up. You have no idea if they are, if they aren’t, if it is even a reasonable possibility. You have simply speculated, with no supporting evidence whatsoever, then pretended it is a credible possibility.

But your argument that we have great new on ticket sales *does* require you to argue that the RFL's figures are *real* ( i.e. they translate to bums on seats ). Your child-like credulity doesn't make everyone else wrong.

Yes, that is correct. I haven’t made up a possibility I have no idea is true or not, I haven’t wildly speculated, I haven’t invented a scenario in my head and pretended it is reality. I have simply made the obvious conclusion from the available evidence. If the RFL state they have sold 40k tickets for the final, and nobody produces any evidence at all which casts doubt on that, why would I conclude anything other than the RFL have sold 40k tickets for the final?

That’s the fundamental difference, you are expecting your wild, baseless, un-evidenced speculation to be treated the same as a conclusion based on the available evidence. This is generally, in common parlance, described as idiocy.

Still confident you're going to win your bet?

very much so

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:43 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Well, depends on what you're wanting to find out, I haven't read all 90-odd pages of the thread. If he's looking for a trend (as I would be), he'd be quite right to be uncomfortable with just comparing with the previous year..

He's been even more uncomfortable with the thread ever since declaring that 2013 SL attendances are on course to being the second highest in history, which probably explains why he bottled out on a bet on that outcome. The evidence thus far from 82 SL games played indicates that during the current franchised, 14 club, top 8 play-off system SL era (2009 to 2013), the attendances in SL are on course to being the lowest of the lot.

El Barbudo wrote:

If, however, you want to see whether attendances are down or up this year compared to last. then fine. But I'm not sure what that proves without at least some reference to longer-term trends anyway.

Data has now been provided on a weekly basis as a response to knee-jerk reactionaries like SmokeyTA who are uncomfortable with threads, stats, articles and news which do not portray SL or the RFL in a positive light.

El Barbudo wrote:

Yes, true ... but in Catalan's case you could use those numbers to say it shows an upward trend over the last few years.

Only if one is intent on focusing on just those isolated stats which portray a positive picture whilst ignoring the overall downward trend.

El Barbudo wrote:

For me, the jury is still out.

The jury is still out on what exactly? I merely responded to your suggestion that attendances in SL were down by over 12% this year due to the recession (the strain on people's wallets) and that reduction in SL attendances was mainly a consequence of away fans not travelling in the same numbers this year.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:29 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

If the RFL state they have sold 40k tickets for the final, and nobody produces any evidence at all which casts doubt on that, why would I conclude anything other than the RFL have sold 40k tickets for the final?

The answer is in the first 4 words of your question.