Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:13 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

If we want a game that's ever going to be seriously more than a few clubs on the M62 we need to get over that concern. Forget away fans, you should be filling grounds with home support.

Absolutely

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:03 am  

I'll just add something into the mix here. For all the doom and gloom that we create, despite our supposed 'terminal' decline in attendaces, we still have a higher average than the Pro12 in Union. This is the professional league that represents IRELAND, WALES, SCOTLAND and ITALY.

We have a higher attendance than that league, despite union apparently being incredibly huge in Wales and Eire. Our league has a higher average despite the limited media coverage and its supposed position as a northern pit sport.

And whilst London crowds are unacceptable, it can be put into context by the fact that the WHOLE of Italy has 2 professional RU teams. One went bust and had to be replaced with the Zebre team this year, and that team is now pulling in a few hundred fans to home games. The other team, Treviso, averages around 3,000 despite being based in a place steeped in union history.

Scotland also has just 2 teams in the Pro12, both based in big cities, and these two can only pull in about 6-7,000 a week between them.

My point is, the fans of this league have much more to be worried about, yet we are cutting ourselves and acting like the end of the world because of 1 year of a drop in attendances. For our attendances to be as high as they are is outstanding considering our position in the world.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:02 pm  

UPDATE...
SL Round 12 attendances - comparison to same fixtures last year

Leeds V London in 2013 = 12,855
Leeds V London in 2012 = 13,109
% decrease = -1.94%

St Helens V Catalan in 2013 = 11,111
St Helens V Catalan in 2012 = 13,108
% decrease = -15.23%


59 out of 77 SL fixtures in 2013 have now registered a fall in attendance compared to the same fixtures between the same teams last year.

Total SL attendance for 77 SL fixtures in 2013 = 673,017 (Avg: 8,740)
Total SL attendance for same 77 SL fixtures in 2012 = 762,761 (Avg: 9,906)
% decrease = -11.77%
Total SL attendance for same 77 SL fixtures in 2011 = 716,136 (Avg: 9,300)**
% decrease = -6.02%

** Widnes fixtures for SL 2011 replaced by equivalent Crusaders fixtures against same opposition.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:35 pm  

JonB95 wrote:

I'll just add something into the mix here. For all the doom and gloom that we create, despite our supposed 'terminal' decline in attendaces, we still have a higher average than the Pro12 in Union. This is the professional league that represents IRELAND, WALES, SCOTLAND and ITALY.

We have a higher attendance than that league, despite union apparently being incredibly huge in Wales and Eire. Our league has a higher average despite the limited media coverage and its supposed position as a northern pit sport.

And whilst London crowds are unacceptable, it can be put into context by the fact that the WHOLE of Italy has 2 professional RU teams. One went bust and had to be replaced with the Zebre team this year, and that team is now pulling in a few hundred fans to home games. The other team, Treviso, averages around 3,000 despite being based in a place steeped in union history.

Scotland also has just 2 teams in the Pro12, both based in big cities, and these two can only pull in about 6-7,000 a week between them.

My point is, the fans of this league have much more to be worried about, yet we are cutting ourselves and acting like the end of the world because of 1 year of a drop in attendances. For our attendances to be as high as they are is outstanding considering our position in the world.

Now, for the record, you were the one that brought Union to the table....

Pro 12 is a secondary competition for the teams with the exception of maybe Connaught, the Scots and Italians...the real prize for the bulk of the teams is of course, the Heineken Cup, which comes in at 12,600 or so per game.....it also includs the poor little Italians and Scots. Next up is the Irish/Welsh statement.....Rugby in Ireland is popular, but by no means is it "incredibly huge". As for Wales, soccer is the #1 sport there too.....you are being swayed by their international popularity....something you very wisely stayed away from by the way...International Crowds.

Italian RU is where French RU used to be...it is a slow work in progress and will continue to grow with investment from the IRB.....in the taboo area of internationals, they averaged 68,415.......you were right to stay away from internationals.....England RL hasn't seen a crowd that size in eons.
Scotland, like wales, is a soccer country that happens to play Union quite well at international level, but struggles on the club scene and is thankfull for their 60,000+ average at internationals to bankroll them.

Yes, Union has "gimmick" games that boost their average attendances...problem is, their gimmick games get 80,000+ people through the door....our Gimmick, the not so magic weekend pales by comparrison

London averaging less than 2,000 is not the concern of the IRB or RFU........it is a concern for the RFL....as is the apparent drop in crowds across the board...your trying to counter this drop by citing 2nd tier Union and ignoring not only the direct competition, the Aviva Premiership (12,000 current average) as well as the Heineken Cup and their International attendances smacks of desperation.

Back on thread, crowds are down and the RFL need to act on it. The employed a "guru"who as far as I can see has drawn some cartoons and managed to attract 9,000 to an autumn international series final.....and the "updates" on RLWC ticket sales seem to have dried up too...

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:53 pm  

gutterfax wrote:

Now, for the record, you were the one that brought Union to the table....

Pro 12 is a secondary competition for the teams with the exception of maybe Connaught, the Scots and Italians...the real prize for the bulk of the teams is of course, the Heineken Cup, which comes in at 12,600 or so per game.....it also includs the poor little Italians and Scots. Next up is the Irish/Welsh statement.....Rugby in Ireland is popular, but by no means is it "incredibly huge". As for Wales, soccer is the #1 sport there too.....you are being swayed by their international popularity....something you very wisely stayed away from by the way...International Crowds.

Italian RU is where French RU used to be...it is a slow work in progress and will continue to grow with investment from the IRB.....in the taboo area of internationals, they averaged 68,415.......you were right to stay away from internationals.....England RL hasn't seen a crowd that size in eons.
Scotland, like wales, is a soccer country that happens to play Union quite well at international level, but struggles on the club scene and is thankfull for their 60,000+ average at internationals to bankroll them.

Yes, Union has "gimmick" games that boost their average attendances...problem is, their gimmick games get 80,000+ people through the door....our Gimmick, the not so magic weekend pales by comparrison

London averaging less than 2,000 is not the concern of the IRB or RFU........it is a concern for the RFL....as is the apparent drop in crowds across the board...your trying to counter this drop by citing 2nd tier Union and ignoring not only the direct competition, the Aviva Premiership (12,000 current average) as well as the Heineken Cup and their International attendances smacks of desperation.

Back on thread, crowds are down and the RFL need to act on it. The employed a "guru"who as far as I can see has drawn some cartoons and managed to attract 9,000 to an autumn international series final.....and the "updates" on RLWC ticket sales seem to have dried up too...

Very happy to leap to the defence of your beloved union, I see.

I don't see how it is in any way a 'second tier' competition since without the bread and butter games there would be no goddamn Heineken Cup.

I'd like to know how you feel Italian RU is growing. Domestically they have gone backwards with only one respectable team and crowds have barely grown at all since they got into the Pro12.

The Pro12, whether you like it or not, is the domestic competition for these countries, and there top clubs can't draw a crowd. League has been steadily growing since the start of Super League and plans are on the table for a potential second French club and also a Champions League of sorts with an Anglo-Aussie challenge competition. Whether that will work or not, the jury is out, but to say that we are making no progress is just plain wrong.

And by the way, no need to bring up international crowds since there is no comparison ATM.. I'm simply questioning those idiots who suggest our league is full of terrible crowds when we in fact are punching pretty well for our current weight... the Aviva is hardly streets ahead given its greater media profile and Sale are only averaging 7,000 whilst representing almost the entirety of the union interest in North England..

I will wait with baited breath for London to be turned around. The RFL have hinted at stepping in and they really need to.. that club is something of an Achilles heel for the league and the whole comp would have a massive boost with a successful London club on board..

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:21 am  

JonB95 wrote:

Very happy to leap to the defence of your beloved union, I see.

Ah...I see. Because I compare Union to League in a negative but ultimately more accurate way than you,I am aUnion lover eh...

JonB95 wrote:

I don't see how it is in any way a 'second tier' competition since without the bread and butter games there would be no goddamn Heineken Cup.

Munster played in both competitions last weekend...on the same day.....they won both. Which game saw their A-Team?
Anyway...you stick to the 2nd tier comp....avoid the more relevant Aviva at all costs

JonB95 wrote:

I'd like to know how you feel Italian RU is growing. Domestically they have gone backwards with only one respectable team and crowds have barely grown at all since they got into the Pro12.

As I said, it is a work in progress and averaging close to70k for internationals gives them vital funds to continue to build....74k v Ireland recently....I'd call that progress from when the joined the 6 nations.

JonB95 wrote:

The Pro12, whether you like it or not, is the domestic competition for these countries

...no it's not, it's the professional competition that,in the main, they field second string players in when the Heineken cup is on.....and you're avoiding the AVIVA again...good lad

JonB95 wrote:

and there top clubs can't draw a crowd.

Really? 20,239 was the average for Leinster in the Rabbo last year....15,028 for Munster....7,600 for Ulster,which is still more than the average for half of SL....

JonB95 wrote:

League has been steadily growing since the start of Super League and plans are on the table for a potential second French club and also a Champions League of sorts with an Anglo-Aussie challenge competition. Whether that will work or not, the jury is out, but to say that we are making no progress is just plain wrong.

No progress.....did I say that? All I did was show you the gaping holes in your "union is in dire straits" post....

JonB95 wrote:

And by the way, no need to bring up international crowds since there is no comparison ATM..

At the moment

JonB95 wrote:

I'm simply questioning those idiots who suggest our league is full of terrible crowds when we in fact are punching pretty well for our current weight... the Aviva is hardly streets ahead given its greater media profile and Sale are only averaging 7,000 whilst representing almost the entirety of the union interest in North England..

As a London fan I'd bite my arm off for an average like that...but keep digging if you must.

JonB95 wrote:

I will wait with baited breath for London to be turned around. The RFL have hinted at stepping in and they really need to.. that club is something of an Achilles heel for the league and the whole comp would have a massive boost with a successful London club on board..

at last, we can agree on that.

Don't fall into the trap that I am a Unionite....I am not. I am on the other hand, a realist though.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:35 am  

gutterfax wrote:

Ah...I see. Because I compare Union to League in a negative but ultimately more accurate way than you,I am aUnion lover eh...

Munster played in both competitions last weekend...on the same day.....they won both. Which game saw their A-Team?
Anyway...you stick to the 2nd tier comp....avoid the more relevant Aviva at all costs

As I said, it is a work in progress and averaging close to70k for internationals gives them vital funds to continue to build....74k v Ireland recently....I'd call that progress from when the joined the 6 nations.

...no it's not, it's the professional competition that,in the main, they field second string players in when the Heineken cup is on.....and you're avoiding the AVIVA again...good lad

Really? 20,239 was the average for Leinster in the Rabbo last year....15,028 for Munster....7,600 for Ulster,which is still more than the average for half of SL....

No progress.....did I say that? All I did was show you the gaping holes in your "union is in dire straits" post....

At the moment

As a London fan I'd bite my arm off for an average like that...but keep digging if you must.

at last, we can agree on that.

Don't fall into the trap that I am a Unionite....I am not. I am on the other hand, a realist though.

That is the clubs' decision to prioritise the Heineken Cup, but it is still a knockout competition. The week in week out league games prop the clubs up. What would they do without the Pro12 exactly?

I have made the comparison with the Aviva. We should be aspiring to their level, which is hardly a million miles away, but their comp is hardly perfect with its promo-relegation farce and lack of northern presence.

We are not a sport with the following : international coverage, high number of bandwagon fans, media preference.

This is why I was discussing LEAGUE fixtures, not international and gimmick games. But you still seem to bring that up.

It's not so doom and gloom as people suggest. Just look at domestic Welsh RU.. without the national crowds propping them up, they would be in the pits .. pardon the pun.

We have 5 clubs that get 10k + every week.. not something that any Pro12 clubs manage, barring the Irish.

Thanks for the debate Gutters, always enjoy it

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:36 am  

gutterfax wrote:

Back on thread, crowds are down and the RFL need to act on it. The employed a "guru"who as far as I can see has drawn some cartoons and managed to attract 9,000 to an autumn international series final.....and the "updates" on RLWC ticket sales seem to have dried up too...

Is it just me that see's a very real comparison here between the sports governing body , and the London administration ?

Which begs the question , if the RFL do take over London , will they be any better ?

Their record isnt great , SL isn't expanding [ not geographically ] in leaps and bounds , their record with the Championship is disgraceful given the statement they made about ' Vibrancy and worth of winning ' , so what should be the targets , and what should they do to get there ?

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:39 am  

Starbug wrote:

Is it just me that see's a very real comparison here between the sports governing body , and the London administration ?

Which begs the question , if the RFL do take over London , will they be any better ?

Their record isnt great , SL isn't expanding [ not geographically ] in leaps and bounds , their record with the Championship is disgraceful given the statement they made about ' Vibrancy and worth of winning ' , so what should be the targets , and how should they do to get there ?

Pretty simple, start by getting some sort of a fan base with a competitive team.. London's marketing is a total disgrace and is holding them back.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:43 am  

JonB95 wrote:

Pretty simple, start by getting some sort of a fan base with a competitive team.. London's marketing is a total disgrace and is holding them back.

And how do you guarantee a competitive team ?

Besides which my question was about the game in general , not london specific , that is a seperate question

Are the RFL's marketing skills any better ? , their record suggests not