[Pemps]

Re: Ben Flower : Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:14 am  

RLBandit wrote:

What do think the consequences of this 'massive' damage will be. 'Massive' fall in playing numbers? 'massive' fall in crowds? 'massive' fall in TV viewers? Something else?

Possibly the opposite of that. I remember when Aussie Rules first started appearing on TV over here. Me and all my mates would watch it just for all the fights, and there were loads, even though we were clueless on the rules. Now it turns out that ARL is crap so my interest soon faded but if this has a similar effect and people tune in to watch our sport then it looks like Ben Flower has done the game a massive favour and maybe a pay rise rather than a ban is in order. Agreed?

Re: Ben Flower : Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:21 am  

Channel Islander wrote:

Not true, surely?

True apparently, along with 1 other who is not an ex player. Thought it was a strange choice personally.

Re: Ben Flower : Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:23 am  

j.c wrote:

As long as the rfl dont take there lead from the lunatics on these forums then an 8 or 10 game ban, a big fine, and few sessions on an anger management course are more than enough

For Wane or Flower

Re: Ben Flower : Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:24 am  

Bull Mania wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think 8-10 is sufficient. Flower has done massive damage to the image of RL. If the RFL hand out a weak punishment, the knives really will be out for the sport. 15 game minimum I reckon.

we dont know what this incident has dont to the image of rl and we wont for some time yet.
if we go off other sports then no damage at all will be done.
like i say these forums are full of lunatics at times like this

Re: Ben Flower : Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:26 am  

RLBandit wrote:

What do think the consequences of this 'massive' damage will be. 'Massive' fall in playing numbers? 'massive' fall in crowds? 'massive' fall in TV viewers? Something else?

When you have a video of the head coach at the top level inciting his team to commit violent acts on the field, and you have a player committing a violent assault on a smaller player, I suspect that it will have an impact on the view of parents when choosing which sport to let their lads (and daughters) play. Its not as if we have a great volume of young lads playing the game, so we cant really afford to lose any more to other sports.

It will also have an impact on commercial income. If I was the CEO of 'Houses for Homes' I would be asking why someone wearing my company name and logo was seen committing a violent assault, and why that image has been projected around the world millions of times. Will that kind of publicity encourage other businesses to be associated with the sport?

Re: Ben Flower : Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:27 am  

The Magic Rat wrote:

For Wane or Flower

lol both of them

Re: Ben Flower : Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:29 am  

Predictably, some media outlets have made the link between Wane's ill-advised team talk and the incident that marred the sport's showcase event; it's hardly a massive leap and who can blame them? Coach yells at players (on camera) to "knock em out" and "get reckless," and a player does exactly that, on the big stage. For all the cries of out of context and not being a literal instruction, it suggests a culture at Wigan that is less than healthy. Coupled with the 'snap the pole' and 'hunt in packs' rumours, and the suggestion that opposition players injuries are circulated to Wigan players as part of match prep, and it all starts to look decidedly whiffy.

If this shines a spotlight on Wigan's hijacking of the game, then something good will come of it. Since Maguire's tenure, they play a brand of rugby that is at times vicious, unsportsmanlike and deeply unpleasant, and because they've been allowed to do so largely unchecked, it spreads like a virus. Cheating is a bit like an arms race - everyone else is doing it, so we have to just to keep up. The modern tackle is a good example - Aussie coaches introduced wrestling a few years ago to slow down the ptb and as a result of lax officiating, we've ended up in a situation where virtually every tackle is a gang assault, followed by a playground style all pile on.

The RFL have an opportunity here to wrest control of the game back from unscrupulous coaches and make very clear where the lines are; if the officials come out for the 2015 season and ruthlessly penalise every player who steps over those lines - consistently and without regard for the occasion or what club they play for - then I'd give it 4 rounds of SL before coaches get the clue and stop training their players to cheat. Or they'll find new ways to cheat, which should also be dealt with in a similarly robust way. Eventually, coaches might spend more energy training their players to be better at playing within the rules, rather than finding news ways to bend and break said rules.

This a watershed moment for RL; it would be a shame if the opportunity were wasted.

Re: Ben Flower : Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:31 am  

RLBandit wrote:

15 weeks is fine by me, but calm down with the 'massive damage'. Bad stuff happens from time to time in all sports, you'll never stop moments of madness, doesn't matter what the rules are. I won't start listing them in RU, NRL, Soccer, etc., plenty others have. It's how you deal with it, and the sport's dealt with it just fine so far, and I'm confident they'll continue to do so. Let the 'knives come out' if they must - at least we get a platform to talk about and defend the sport, which plenty RL people have done so eloquently already. The fact that the RL community, Wigan included, has come out and made it absolutely clear that this is totally unacceptable gives the message that this is an unusual incident.

I agree with this. Seems to be the usual anti-RL media jumping on the bandwagon and going so far as questioning the morality of the sport, this was one stupid mistake FFS.

Re: Ben Flower : Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:33 am  

It seems to me that there is a lot of muddled thinking on here. For example, that 8 matches may be sufficient (that is the absolute minimum under a grade F and so it is likely to be much more, in my personal opinion). As to the idea that a big punishment could affect BF's mental health: that is almost certainly the case and will already be doing so, just as is the case for anyone in similar circumstances (eg celebrity offenders, etc). That is, however, a separate issue from punishment for an offence and it is up to his club, the RFL, family / friends, whoever to support him, and provide him with access to professional support, as appropriate but it should not come into the equation for considering the sanctions.

Looking at the bigger picture it seems this moment, if handled inappropriately, potentially constitutes an existential threat to professional rugby league in this country. The Press are saying a minimum of a 6 months is likely (and that anything else would probably be unacceptable) and that he could potentially get a life ban. Personally I think a 12 month ban is likely (as a minimum). A short ban increases the risk of the few sponsors the game has dropping it (the game markets itself as family friendly, etc) and of a disastrous Court case should Saints / the Police press charges, which would have enormous reputational and indeed financial consequences.

What about about LH's mental and physical health? A powerful blow to the head when possibly / probably already concussed is quite probably going to cause depression and possibly, but hopefully not, long-term problems. As I understand it he is a due a scan which hopefully will not reveal too much damage. But what if it ends his career?

The footballer Duncan Ferguson was jailed for 3 months (out after 44 days) for head-butting an opponent. I can't fully remember the incident but I do not recall being as shocked by it. Maybe that is a point of reference? Against that, it is probably clear that a professional RL player would know and accept a higher physical risk from that sort of thing than a footballer. But did when LH when he was a kid dreaming of being a RL player anticipate being punched when lying of the ground by such a bigger / stronger player? Would any parent want their boy to play a game that doesn't totally reject such behaviour? These are big issues and bigger than just our love of the game and a "bit of biff."

It is to be hoped that the disciplinary panel get it right in all the circumstances (which will be no mean feat with the Press on the case). If they don't I think it will be dreadful for the game as a whole in this country. I am concerned that if the decision is considered too lenient that questions could be asked about the composition of the panel - which as I understand it includes Danny Sculthorpe (who played for Wigan) and Neil Turley (who started off at Wigan). I am sure they and the judge will act correctly but perception will be everything.

As to the incident - probably the most shocking I can recall. The other one Was Big Jim Mills' infamous stamp on John Greengrass but even that didn't shock me as much.

I would agree with CI in The Times that the game has not adequately dealt with and punished head high shots which have become routine again. Given the pace of the game and the strength of modern players this is something that urgently needs addressing. For me we need to start sending people off rather than worrying about the effect on the particular match. Head shots should as a rule (exceptions for slipping into tackle, etc) warrant an automatic red card. Coaching / tackling styles would soon adapt accordingly and everyone would be better off.

If we had more red cards the game would clean up quickly and we wouldn't have the obscene spectacle of people trying to judge Saturday's incident by reference to other recent incidents that caused damage to others and stop this upward creep of normalised / 'acceptable' on field violence.

That all said, I think that the discipline and ethics of the average RL player is first class.

Re: Ben Flower : Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:38 am  

As to Wane, although it may seem a little snobbish, but in my personal opinion he does himself and the image of Wigan club no favours by his appearance. Compare his appearance with say Tony Smith or in another sport Arsene Wenger, Sir Alex Ferguson (equally focussed on winning), etc.