Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:52 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

State of Mind is a very worthwhile cause designed to help people with mental health issues. It isnt there to protect you from the negative consequences of your actions and it is a pretty classless choice to use it as such.

If Ben Flower goes on to suffer from such a mental health issue he should get all the professional help available to him and not one person would begrudge him that. It isnt, and never will be a protection from the consequences of his actions and to attempt to link it someway shows a huge misunderstanding of not only the State of Mind campaign but of mental health in general.

To attempt such deflection and try and portray this as some sort of concerted effort to push some vulnerable victim towards suicide is idiotic, to invoke the sad story of Terry Newton to try and do so somehow manages to limbo under the very low bar you repeatedly set yourself.

Superb post.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:01 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

State of Mind is a very worthwhile cause designed to help people with mental health issues. It isnt there to protect you from the negative consequences of your actions and it is a pretty classless choice to use it as such.

If Ben Flower goes on to suffer from such a mental health issue he should get all the professional help available to him and not one person would begrudge him that. It isnt, and never will be a protection from the consequences of his actions and to attempt to link it someway shows a huge misunderstanding of not only the State of Mind campaign but of mental health in general.

To attempt such deflection and try and portray this as some sort of concerted effort to push some vulnerable victim towards suicide is idiotic, to invoke the sad story of Terry Newton to try and do so somehow manages to limbo under the very low bar you repeatedly set yourself.

So you'd be happier for the RL community to cast Flower aside and abandon him, than to support him through a scenario he probably never, in his wildest dreams, thought would happen; something far bigger than he would normally be exposed to, something he probably isn't equipped to handle, only offering help once things turn sour. Classy.

And by the way, I never mentioned Terry Newton, or suicide, or some fantasy 'concerted effort'. You did, proving you understand the potential. And yet you persist. Perhaps you actually wish depression on Flower like your buddy FlexWheeler?

What I did say was, given recent tragedies, his mental welfare should be taken into consideration right now. Simple as that. If you don't think that's true that says a lot about you.

Nope, your straw man and excuses don't wash. You want a public execution without regard for the potential consequences. All over one punch.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:09 pm  

Cronus wrote:

So you'd be happier for the RL community to cast Flower aside and abandon him, than to support him through a scenario he probably never, in his wildest dreams, thought would happen; something far bigger than he would normally be exposed to, something he probably isn't equipped to handle, only to offer help once things turn sour. Classy.

Things havent turned sour. He did something very very wrong and is dealing with the consequences of that.

And by the way, I never mentioned Terry Newton, or suicide, or some fantasy 'concerted effort'. You did, proving you understand the potential. And yet you persist. Perhaps you actually wish depression on Flower like your buddy FlexWheeler?

you know what you were hinting at, i know what you were hinting at. You will probably hint at that again............oh

What I did say was, given recent tragedies, his mental welfare should be taken into consideration right now. Simple as that. If you don't think that's true that says a lot about you.

No, you said lots of other nonsense as well. Its still there, people will read it. The if you don't agree then that means you're the problem gambit sounds like a 1st year women's studies student shouting confused complaints about the patriarchy.

Nope, your straw man and excuses don't wash. You want a public execution without regard for the potential consequences. All over one punch.

If anyone would like a good example of hypocrisy. That paragraph is a pretty impressive example.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:13 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

Cronus wrote:

Absolutely, a point I put to Giant Daz a few pages back after he suggested no-one should stand beyond Flower in the face of his guilt, that anyone standing by him was "as sick as the perpetrator". I didn't get a reply.

It's an issue of huge consideration. People on here are wailing and gnashing for Flower to have his career ended, to be banged up in jail, to be made an example of, for Wane to be sacked and God knows what else. You'd think given the tragic events surrounding depression and ex-RL players these people would think a moment. All over one, albeit very bad, punch.

Of course some other posters have shown their true colours over the subject:

Correct. The bloke screwed up massively and is absolutely distraught about it. He will get, and will no doubt accept, a harsh but fair punishment. For some on here, though, no punishment is enough. The rabid attacks show absolutely no human compassion - something they might want to reflect on the next time they make a really big mistake. Most other peoples big mistakes aren't played out over and again in the national media. The guy must be going through an unbelievably hard time. Demand justice for the offence, fine, but have a bit of compassion too, you never know, you might make a big mistake one day.

The difference is that most other peoples 'big mistakes' don't include a vicious assault on a prone and unconscious person. I suppose you're one of the PC brigade that believe murderers, rapists and peados should have the same rights as everyone else....

I wonder if those who are so worried about Flowers state of mind, or those that are trying to mitigate or offer reason for/explain his reaction (though they're claiming they're not trying to justify it) would be doing the same if Hohaia had been seriously injured or killed. That might seem like an over reaction or exaggeration, as it would be rare/unlikely for that outcome - however the same could easily be said about the McKinnon tackle from earlier this year.

That said, his well being is still important, but let's not try for a minute and try and make him some sort of victim from this. His actions have reprocusions - his public perception and a negative attitude towards him are one of those. Maybe he'll learn from this and be a little more controlled in the future.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:25 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Things havent turned sour. He did something very very wrong and is dealing with the consequences of that.

He is? You know Ben? You're a trained psychiatrist? No indicators? Strong evidence of coping mechanisms? Wonderful, glad he's doing well because his father sounded pretty concerned on social media yesterday.

SmokeyTA wrote:

you know what you were hinting at, i know what you were hinting at. You will probably hint at that again............oh
No, you said lots of other nonsense as well. Its still there, people will read it. The if you don't agree then that means you're the problem gambit sounds like a 1st year women's studies student shouting confused complaints about the patriarchy.
If anyone would like a good example of hypocrisy. That paragraph is a pretty impressive example.

Honestly, even by your standards that's lame.

Enjoy your public execution, you and the other parasites have been shouting for it loudly enough.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:32 pm  

Cronus wrote:

He is? You know Ben? You're a trained psychiatrist? No indicators? Strong evidence of coping mechanism, Wonderful, glad he's doing well because his father sounded pretty concerned on social media yesterday.

Honestly, even by your standards that's lame.

Enjoy your public execution, you and the other parasites have been shouting for it loudly enough.

great ad hominems.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:44 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Enjoy your public execution, you and the other parasites have been shouting for it loudly enough.

This is the bit I don't get about the Wigan fans and a few select others on this thread. Just who exactly is demanding a public execution, who is foaming at the mouth as gets brought up every second page? I've suggested a 9 month or 14 game ban. Is that foaming at the mouth? Andrew Voss recommended a year, as did Jonathon Davies. Tony Smith, one of the most composed, professional and respectful coaches in the game has today expressed his concern about Wane's team talk being shown on Sky and it's potential influence on young coaches and players. Is he carrying a pitchfork. Gary Schofield has suggested a 16 game ban, is he?

Brian Carney, a Wigan favourite has today suggested the way Wigan approach games needs to be addressed. One of your own. Yet you and loads of others on the Wigan forum are still mocking the suggestion that Wigan as a club are doing anything wrong. It's a very fine line and Wigan are the wrong side of it. 'Car crash' pictures, 'snap the pole' motivational banners and the techniques it encourages, the 'knock people out, be reckless' teamtalk, the listing of opposition player injuries on walls before games, all behaviours that need to stop.

Maguire and Wane are doing an awful lot of damage to Wigan's history and reputation. Wigan are not the Millwall of Rugby League, a team that needs to resort to underhand tactics and violence to gain an advantage. They are a team with a proud history that has always, up to Maguire, played the game the right way and won trophies by doing it better than other sides. Wigan as a club need to rise above all those behaviours and get back to doing it the right way.

Surely you can see there is something to this? I appreciate it's hard to self-evaluate something you are so committed to, but from Carney's, Offiah's and Leneghan's words today it seems to be hitting home.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:47 pm  

Cronus wrote:

He is? You know Ben? You're a trained psychiatrist? No indicators? Strong evidence of coping mechanisms? Wonderful, glad he's doing well because his father sounded pretty concerned on social media yesterday.

Honestly, even by your standards that's lame.

Enjoy your public execution, you and the other parasites have been shouting for it loudly enough.

It's a shame you didn't show this much concern for players' welfare when you were mouthing off about Zak Hardaker for days on end, whilst he was taking a barrage of abuse across the web.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:50 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

:lol: great ad hominems.

Translation: you got me, I can't argue.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:30 pm  

Bless, 66 pages about an average Welsh prop.