[Durham Giant]

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:55 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

No.

Had Flower known he was unconscious he wouldn't have done either. ( Which is absolutely no defence to punching a prone player - itself a very poor act which deserves a long ban, but not the first time a punch has ever been thrown at a prone player).

You know that thing you sometimes see on television where all the players look like they're moving really slowly? - slow enough even to make considered decisions before any action? Well, it's not real. Players can't really jump through the air defying gravity like that. It's something magic they do on TV - they can actually slow the action down after the event! Incredible I know, but it all makes more sense when you know what they're doing.

Considering you constantly show us you are a man of the world who was coached at 10 to knock people out i can claim on my own experience that Flower would have known that Hohaia was knocked out.

I have played rugby, soccer, gaelic football and hurling. I was an amateur boxer and have had a few scrapes in my life.

I can tell you 100% that you know when you have given someone a clean punch. You know pretty well when you have hit that sweet spot and someone is going down.

When they are down and you have to bend down on one knee and the opponents hands are splayed wide so that you can hit them again you know they are gone
No matter how quick it is you know they are not fighting back, you know they are not covering up you know they are out.

You know this instantaneously, you know it instinctively, you know it objectively.

He knew he was knocked out but he had so lost himself in his emotion or anger or frustration he did not care and still went for it.

Either way that scenario is very very scary and something the RFL need to deal with

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:56 pm  

FlexWheeler wrote:

Does anyone think it was just pure co-incidence it happened to be saints only recognised halfback Hohaia who just happened to be taken out? Flower did go for him first. You wonder whether he may (or maynot) have been under some instruction.

Happens every game, rattle the opposition half back and put him off his game. Works a treat with Danny Brough, been going on since the birth of RL.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:00 pm  

I do not condone what Ben Flower did for one second, but I think we all need to stop and think about all the coverage for State of Mind. Flower will not be allowed to forget this for a very long time, what he did was inexcusable. I hope he gets the ban he deserves, but then we have to leave it and let time heal for everyone.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:04 pm  

FlexWheeler wrote:

Does anyone think it was just pure co-incidence it happened to be saints only recognised halfback Hohaia who just happened to be taken out? Flower did go for him first. You wonder whether he may (or maynot) have been under some instruction.

Nothing would suprise me from a team that allegedly has a hit list handed round on what injuries and operations players have had in the last 12 months.

I don,t know if they are still there but Wigan had large pictures of what they call "car crashes" in the corridors at the training ground to encourage your above assumption, these pictures are FACT. Wigan Players are indoctrinated into playing Thugby.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:05 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

Considering you constantly show us you are a man of the world who was coached at 10 to knock people out i can claim on my own experience that Flower would have known that Hohaia was knocked out.

I have played rugby, soccer, gaelic football and hurling. I was an amateur boxer and have had a few scrapes in my life.

I can tell you 100% that you know when you have given someone a clean punch. You know pretty well when you have hit that sweet spot and someone is going down.

When they are down and you have to bend down on one knee and the opponents hands are splayed wide so that you can hit them again you know they are gone
No matter how quick it is you know they are not fighting back, you know they are not covering up you know they are out.

You know this instantaneously, you know it instinctively, you know it objectively.

He knew he was knocked out but he had so lost himself in his emotion or anger or frustration he did not care and still went for it.

Either way that scenario is very very scary and something the RFL need to deal with

I was not coached at ten to knock people out. When I was ten, coaches (this in union by the way) used phrases like 'knock his block off' when talking about, say, the biggest opposition player who was trampling on people. It's old fashioned and not how you'd coach nowadays, but it wasn't taken literally. Taken literally, 'knock his block off' is worse than 'knock someone out', but even a ten year old knew that it didn't mean to literally knock his head off his shoulders. That's what I meant when I said I'd heard 'worse' in junior rugby. The point is to put Wane's comments into context.

On the other point If you are correct about Flower, then he shouldn't play again, but I still think you're wrong.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:07 pm  

I was hoping by now that sports psychologists may have posted something pertinent to the Wane half time team talk as show on Sky TV and the conduct of Flower,and whether or not there is any correlation. I am curious because I was led to believe that you can overload an elite sports person with information,so brief words is the correct way to go. I have tried to check sports psychology on the magic screen and I found one about soccer players controlling their own emotions ( and temper ) SAY ICE and one about putative elite sports people not retaining too much information HERE Anything better out there...?

I was hoping by now that sports psychologists may have posted something pertinent to the Wane half time team talk as show on Sky TV and the conduct of Flower,and whether or not there is any correlation. I am curious because I was led to believe that you can overload an elite sports person with information,so brief words is the correct way to go. I have tried to check sports psychology on the magic screen and I found one about soccer players controlling their own emotions ( and temper ) SAY ICE and one about putative elite sports people not retaining too much information HERE Anything better out there...?

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:11 pm  

nottinghamtiger wrote:

Happens every game, rattle the opposition half back and put him off his game. Works a treat with Danny Brough, been going on since the birth of RL.

This was more than just trying to rattle a halfback. He was out, he was gone. But still that wasn't enough for Flower. Chilling.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:16 pm  

It is surprising that no media outlet in this country has linked the team talk to the punch. Very surprising.

It has got amazing coverage, as I speak now an article has been put on the Guardian website about how Saints are refusing to rule out legal action against Flower and its the fourth Flower related article in the top ten sports stories. It's not good publicity either as the other articles include one reviewing all the previous incidents that have shocked rugby league including Hopoate and his wandering finger. Not the sort of news we need to remind people of.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:19 pm  

Pal of Mine wrote:

I do not condone what Ben Flower did for one second, but I think we all need to stop and think about all the coverage for State of Mind. Flower will not be allowed to forget this for a very long time, what he did was inexcusable. I hope he gets the ban he deserves, but then we have to leave it and let time heal for everyone.

Absolutely, a point I put to Giant Daz a few pages back after he suggested no-one should stand beyond Flower in the face of his guilt, that anyone standing by him was "as sick as the perpetrator". I didn't get a reply.

It's an issue of huge consideration. People on here are wailing and gnashing for Flower to have his career ended, to be banged up in jail, to be made an example of, for Wane to be sacked and God knows what else. You'd think given the tragic events surrounding depression and ex-RL players these people would think a moment. All over one, albeit very bad, punch.

Of course some other posters have shown their true colours over the subject:

FlexWheeler wrote:

Scum.

LOL at Ben flower with his head in his heads. What did he think was going to happen? That's a cowardly act by anyones standards. If wigan lose I hope that eats away at him the rest of his life and causes depression.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:19 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

It is surprising that no media outlet in this country has linked the team talk to the punch. Very surprising.

It has got amazing coverage, as I speak now an article has been put on the Guardian website about how Saints are refusing to rule out legal action against Flower and its the fourth Flower related article in the top ten sports stories. It's not good publicity either as the other articles include one reviewing all the previous incidents that have shocked rugby league including Hopoate and his wandering finger. Not the sort of news we need to remind people of.

I saw that, rugby league's top ten moments of ignominy!