Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:00 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

There's a difference between good news and transparent spin. If we ( the critics you dislike so much) thought the RFL were doing a good job) we might feel differently, but it frustrates when we see the RFL telling us what a good job its doing when we believe the opposite.

You may, and probably do, disagree. But it really is ridiculous to suggest that being a critic or a cheerleader of the sport's governance has anything to do with your loyalty as a fan of the sport. You can love the sport and hate (or love for that matter) the way its run. No contradiction. If you don't like the way its run, and seek to explain yourself, then you're naturally going to point out actions or outcomes that support your assertion that things aren't right.

As to 'why' - who knows? why does anyone bother to share any opinion? A lot of people do, though, and we'd be in a bad way if only positive comments were allowed. You've also got to remember that any board like this is going to have a 'negative' bias, for the obvious reason that people don't usually bother to post "I just wanted to say, I think everything is great".

But you aren’t just sharing an opinion, you are spending time and effort finding things to be upset about. Yes the RFL may push the positives and down play the negatives, that is their job and I have no problem with dissenting opinion. But particularly you, and Mr Eve (though I suspect for quite different reasons) aren’t presenting dissenting opinion, you aren’t simply arguing for or against something, for reasons beyond me, you have chosen to take the time and effort of going out and searching for reasons the good things cant be good and the bad things are worse. Why? Well to be fair you have quite clearly explained why, you don’t believe that the RFL are doing a good job. That is fine, you are welcome to that opinion. I will point out the circularity of your reasoning and how it actually damages rather than strengthens your argument when you admit that you are searching for evidence to support your conclusion rather than using the evidence to come to your conclusion, but that is a separate matter. It still doesn’t address why you would want the successes of the game not to be success and why you would want the negatives to be mroe negative than they were

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:10 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

But you aren’t just sharing an opinion, you are spending time and effort finding things to be upset about. Yes the RFL may push the positives and down play the negatives, that is their job and I have no problem with dissenting opinion. But particularly you, and Mr Eve (though I suspect for quite different reasons) aren’t presenting dissenting opinion, you aren’t simply arguing for or against something, for reasons beyond me, you have chosen to take the time and effort of going out and searching for reasons the good things cant be good and the bad things are worse. Why? Well to be fair you have quite clearly explained why, you don’t believe that the RFL are doing a good job. That is fine, you are welcome to that opinion. I will point out the circularity of your reasoning and how it actually damages rather than strengthens your argument when you admit that you are searching for evidence to support your conclusion rather than using the evidence to come to your conclusion, but that is a separate matter. It still doesn’t address why you would want the successes of the game not to be success and why you would want the negatives to be mroe negative than they were

There is no circularity in saying "I don't think the RFL are doing a good job because of [x,y,z]". The specifics help support ( at least for my purposes - whether you agree is your opinion) the general. The general point being that I don't think they're particularly bright or strategically capable. I think this, not only based on the stagnation in the sport (taken across the board, not just SL), but also because whenever they publish something purporting to be 'strategy' I wince at their total misunderstanding of what strategy is (again, as far as I'm concerned anyway).

If you start without that understanding, the results will manifest themselves in bad decisions and (in-)actions on lower-level things. Not that my voice matters in the slightest, but in the fantasy that it did, I'd rather point out that the sport is run by people not up to the job, and thus argue that we need a change, than say nice things as if it were some form of 'patriotism'. It's like if someone happened to be a republican (I'm not), and spent their time highlighting things the royals (or the state as a monarchy anyway) did wrong. You've no right to call them unpatriotic. Agree or disagree, they clearly care enough about the country to express an opinion.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:21 pm  

christopher wrote:

You're mixing up two points here. No one is saying negative comments shouldn't be aired, the difference is, some people think that the RFL are wrong for using positives to promote the game.

Whats written on here means diddly squat in the real world, on the other hand what information the RFL release has an impact.

Exactly. In isolation, there is nothing wrong with the RFL's "attendance is up" PR. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with the what the poster is doing. In fact he's doing a great job. This is a fans forum - we don't really need the RFL's figures to encourage us to go to games ( that PR is intended for others). Here , as fans, I think its good to discuss the truth about attendances, even if, as I have agreed, its too early to draw conclusions about anything. I find any post that highlights a problem or an issue (regardless of whether I agree with it) hugely more interesting than "isn't it all great". In contrast to people that don't understand us glass-half-empty folk, I don't understand why people get so wound up about - on a discussion forum - people being critical of the RFL. I think they're absolute chumps - what I post is likely to reflect that. Some of you think they're competent. I think you're mad, but hey, keep saying it, its all good.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:32 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

There is no circularity in saying "I don't think the RFL are doing a good job because of [x,y,z]". The specifics help support ( at least for my purposes - whether you agree is your opinion) the general. The general point being that I don't think they're particularly bright or strategically capable. I think this, not only based on the stagnation in the sport (taken across the board, not just SL), but also because whenever they publish something purporting to be 'strategy' I wince at their total misunderstanding of what strategy is (again, as far as I'm concerned anyway).

If you start without that understanding, the results will manifest themselves in bad decisions and (in-)actions on lower-level things. Not that my voice matters in the slightest, but in the fantasy that it did, I'd rather point out that the sport is run by people not up to the job, and thus argue that we need a change, than say nice things as if it were some form of 'patriotism'. It's like if someone happened to be a republican (I'm not), and spent their time highlighting things the royals (or the state as a monarchy anyway) did wrong. You've no right to call them unpatriotic. Agree or disagree, they clearly care enough about the country to express an opinion.

If you cant understand the difference between basing your opinion on the facts, and searching out the facts to support your opinion, I can’t help you.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:04 pm  

Just had a quick whizz through Mr Eve's posts, and there does seem to be a particular obsession with the play-off system and promoting any negative that can possibly be gleaned from the game. I would suggest that he finds an interest he actually enjoys, because he seems to really despise rugby league.

The game ain't perfect, but those who run it do so with the best of intentions, hoping to make the game as popular as ever by keeping the season alive for as long as possible for as many clubs. It's a natural consequence of having no relegation. The six-team play-off was probably the best system, and of course rugby league has throughout its history decided the champions through a play-off system, apart from a short period between the '70's and the 90's.

The argument that no one is interested because regular season games are meaningless has no logic, because the reality is that for ten of the clubs, the whole season would be meaningless if it was first past the post. I know there is no prospect of Wakey winning the Grand Final or League Leaders Shield, or maybe never, but some people just want to see their local side beat another team in an enjoyable spectacle. The fact that for Mr Eve it is all about the glory suggests that he follows one of the bigger clubs, and Leeds attracts most of the glory-boys.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:39 pm  

Him wrote:

Except some games in the first 2 rounds have been played in poor weather but the corresponding fixture from last year was played in good weather in the summer. So you'd expect those attendances to be down a little.
Plus didn't Huddersfield and Bradford have cheap season ticket deals that they don't have this season?

the irony of people suggesting thing like this after I was ridiculed for suggesting last seasons figures were inflated due to a number of factors that increased attendances and will not happen in the future.

Many people seemed happy that we had 'record numbers' last season without even bothering to look in to why they were higher. As I stated they went out of their way to ridicule those who suggested reasons for the artificially high numbers and why they wouldnt be as high next season.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:55 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

Exactly. In isolation, there is nothing wrong with the RFL's "attendance is up" PR.

Well glad to see some people recognise that.

RLBandit wrote:

Likewise, there is nothing wrong with the what the poster is doing. In fact he's doing a great job.

Not really, he's offering no suggestions or asking any questions as to why an attendance is down. He's already decided in his mind that the people who didn't go this year were absent because they 'think the regular season has become meaningless', just because he hopes that is the reason.

RLBandit wrote:

This is a fans forum - we don't really need the RFL's figures to encourage us to go to games ( that PR is intended for others).

No we don't but neither do we need 'fans' going around talking the game down simply because they as individuals don't get any joy out of it. And yes it might 'only' be a fans forum, but if you hear your fellow 'fans' saying how rubbish it all is repeatedly then it will stick in some people's heads next time they watch a game and see something poor.

RLBandit wrote:

Here , as fans, I think its good to discuss the truth about attendances, even if, as I have agreed, its too early to draw conclusions about anything. I find any post that highlights a problem or an issue (regardless of whether I agree with it) hugely more interesting than "isn't it all great".

]
But we generally have more 'bad' threads than 'good' threads, which I might also point out are hardly ever ''isn't it ALL great'' merely highlighting one thing that was good. In the 'bad' ones, it seems one bad thing leads to doomsday style ''the sport will be dead in 5 years'' type hysteria. We also have to put up with 'NRL does it better' threads quite often and on a couple of threads this week everytime Mr Eve has promoted a bad attendance stat about SL i've been able to show a worst one for the 'Almighty' NRL to put this 'problem' he's continuing to hint at in a more realistic light.

RLBandit wrote:

In contrast to people that don't understand us glass-half-empty folk, I don't understand why people get so wound up about - on a discussion forum - people being critical of the RFL.

I understand them, I simply don't like them. Why? Because really, deep down, they offer absolutely ZERO.......yes sorry to bust the bubble but it is ZERO! Then can lie to themselves in their self-important world that they do, but the true is they don't. That's not to say criticism is bad and unwanted, criticism is vital actually, but I prefer my criticism to be constructive and regardless of what some will say I reckon that at least 80% of the criticism we read on here isn't constructive, it's just bitter people being bitter people.

RLBandit wrote:

Some of you think they're competent. I think you're mad, but hey, keep saying it, its all good.

Funny thing is, you don't really read people saying that though. High praise of the RFL and Nigel Wood on here is as rare as a hen's tooth so this idea that you 'glass half empty' folk have that anybody who says anything positive about RL must be some huge Nigel Wood fan is just an dreamt up idea in your heads.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:26 pm  

The Championship attendances didn't make it past 1,000 this week , still " Vibrant and worth winning " then Mr Wood ?

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:26 pm  

Him wrote:

There were 4 teams at home this year that were at home last year. Leeds, London, Salford and Bradford.

At Leeds the crowd was down by 46
At London the crowd was down by 2,068
At Salford the crowd was up by 141
At Bradford the crowd was down 186

So they're roughly the same bar London.

If this was round 1 in 2012 then Saints were at London if memory serves and that will account for some of the drop in numbers in 2013 as Widnes wouldn't have taken as many fans to the Stoop as Saints did last year.

As for round 2, Saints alone accounts for almost 3000 of the drop because our first game at Langtree Park was in round 2 against Salford. Our crowd was 15,000 for that match. This time around it was 12,000 (which is still apparently the biggest crowd for a home game against Hudds but a pretty big drop on last season).

Saints boosted the figures big time last season because of the new stadium factor. I think we came second in the league of average attendances only to Wigan. And then we were very close to them. We won't get anywhere near that amount this season and so there will be a fall in numbers throughout the season as a result (unless another club/other clubs elsewhere makes up for the drop of course!).

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:37 pm  

SaintsFan wrote: I think we came second in the league of average attendances only to Wigan. And then we were very close to them.. Saints were third last season. http://www.loverugbyleague.com/news_101 ... table.html Wigan - 16,043 Leeds - 14,948 Saints - 14,088

SaintsFan wrote: I think we came second in the league of average attendances only to Wigan. And then we were very close to them.. Saints were third last season. http://www.loverugbyleague.com/news_101 ... table.html Wigan - 16,043 Leeds - 14,948 Saints - 14,088