Re: Widnes & Relegation : Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:55 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

The main point is that, by not having relegation or, more impotently, not having the opportunity of promotion, the game had royally screwed over all of the clubs outside of Super League AND prevented the future inclusion of the N. American wanabe's.

Therefore, after discussion among ALL of the clubs, "we" had the all new 3 x 8 structure, which, despite some of the drama that was created in the "middle 8", was an absolute disaster and thank goodness, this was consigned to history.

However, allowing clubs to gain promotion is the right thing for the game, albeit, it's massively painful and damaging for any relegated club, although, they do of course have the chance to regain their spot should they achieve promotion in future.

The game does need to re visit funding for the Championship, which has to be more evenly spread and let's be honest, this conversation is only taking place because Leeds are in danger.
If the bottom 34 clubs were KR, Trinity, Salford and Huddersfield, nobody (apart from their own fans) would give a toss whether they went down (or out of business).

Our sport is dominated by the needs and wishes of the top 4/.5 clubs and the rest have to fall in behind them, which as they are the main drivers for income / investment, is probably right.
Largely, they (including Leeds) have got what they wanted so, to start moaning that relegation is wrong is just a little sad.
Your argument is not one of principle, more to do with self preservation.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:33 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

The main point is that, by not having relegation or, more impotently, not having the opportunity of promotion, the game had royally screwed over all of the clubs outside of Super League AND prevented the future inclusion of the N. American wanabe's.

Therefore, after discussion among ALL of the clubs, "we" had the all new 3 x 8 structure, which, despite some of the drama that was created in the "middle 8", was an absolute disaster and thank goodness, this was consigned to history.

However, allowing clubs to gain promotion is the right thing for the game, albeit, it's massively painful and damaging for any relegated club, although, they do of course have the chance to regain their spot should they achieve promotion in future.

The game does need to re visit funding for the Championship, which has to be more evenly spread and let's be honest, this conversation is only taking place because Leeds are in danger.
If the bottom 34 clubs were KR, Trinity, Salford and Huddersfield, nobody (apart from their own fans) would give a toss whether they went down (or out of business).

Our sport is dominated by the needs and wishes of the top 4/.5 clubs and the rest have to fall in behind them, which as they are the main drivers for income / investment, is probably right.
Largely, they (including Leeds) have got what they wanted so, to start moaning that relegation is wrong is just a little sad.
Your argument is not one of principle, more to do with self preservation.

Yep.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:31 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

The main point is that, by not having relegation or, more impotently, not having the opportunity of promotion, the game had royally screwed over all of the clubs outside of Super League AND prevented the future inclusion of the N. American wanabe's.

Therefore, after discussion among ALL of the clubs, "we" had the all new 3 x 8 structure, which, despite some of the drama that was created in the "middle 8", was an absolute disaster and thank goodness, this was consigned to history.

However, allowing clubs to gain promotion is the right thing for the game, albeit, it's massively painful and damaging for any relegated club, although, they do of course have the chance to regain their spot should they achieve promotion in future.

The game does need to re visit funding for the Championship, which has to be more evenly spread and let's be honest, this conversation is only taking place because Leeds are in danger.
If the bottom 34 clubs were KR, Trinity, Salford and Huddersfield, nobody (apart from their own fans) would give a toss whether they went down (or out of business).

Our sport is dominated by the needs and wishes of the top 4/.5 clubs and the rest have to fall in behind them, which as they are the main drivers for income / investment, is probably right.
Largely, they (including Leeds) have got what they wanted so, to start moaning that relegation is wrong is just a little sad.
Your argument is not one of principle, more to do with self preservation.

I agree with al lot of what you say but still think licensing is the way to go.

Assumptions are being made that with a franchise system it has to be a closed shop. It doesn’t. If a club has the ambition, the infrastructure and the finances there is no reason the franchised league couldn’t be expanded. We have a system now that some teams play others 3 times. If SL grew we’d end up with some teams playing others only once. Doesn’t matter with a play off to determine the winners.

Once the league has grown enough to support two mandatory full time leagues then in can be split with promotion and relegation re-introduced.

I see the point that some have made that some teams are relegated because of poor decisions on their part but that’s not necessarily the case. The current system effectively pushes clubs to spend beyond their means to try and avoid going down.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:48 am  

Trainman wrote:

I agree with al lot of what you say but still think licensing is the way to go.

Assumptions are being made that with a franchise system it has to be a closed shop. It doesn’t. If a club has the ambition, the infrastructure and the finances there is no reason the franchised league couldn’t be expanded. We have a system now that some teams play others 3 times. If SL grew we’d end up with some teams playing others only once. Doesn’t matter with a play off to determine the winners.

Once the league has grown enough to support two mandatory full time leagues then in can be split with promotion and relegation re-introduced.

I see the point that some have made that some teams are relegated because of poor decisions on their part but that’s not necessarily the case. The current system effectively pushes clubs to spend beyond their means to try and avoid going down.

The problem with franchising/ licensing is that it tends to be a smoke and mirrors situation, where different criteria are allocated different "points", therefore allowing those controlling the allocation of licences to skew the criteria to suit their agenda and again, with the likely influx of N. American clubs, who have loads of cash but no foundation, just how do you score them ??

Plus, with franchise/ licensing, you are still effectively putting two fingers up to the Championship clubs.

People forget that RL is a sport and as such success should be decided on the field of play and not just by ticking boxes on a checklist.

Promotion/relegation was only brought back because it was deemed "unfair" to prevent Championship clubs from progressing.

Indeed, on any criteria based list, London would be nowhere near SL and yet, this season, having been promoted (and written off pre season) they have been a revelation.
Ironically, it is their success that has caused some fans to moan about the spectre of relegation when, pre season, "everyone" was happy with the format as they were "certain" that London would be straight back to the Championship.

They are without doubt the team of the season and Ward has done an increddible job, on a shoestring budget with a wafer thin squad

All of this will intensify greatly if/when Toronto are promoted as they seem to have plenty of cash to throw around and one would expect that once promoted, they will be here to stay.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:49 am  

Trainman wrote:

I agree with al lot of what you say but still think licensing is the way to go.

Assumptions are being made that with a franchise system it has to be a closed shop. It doesn’t. If a club has the ambition, the infrastructure and the finances there is no reason the franchised league couldn’t be expanded. We have a system now that some teams play others 3 times. If SL grew we’d end up with some teams playing others only once. Doesn’t matter with a play off to determine the winners.

Once the league has grown enough to support two mandatory full time leagues ty6hen in can be split with promotion and relegation re-introduced.

I see the point that some have made that some teams are relegated because of poor decisions on their part but that’s not necessarily the case. The current system effectively pushes clubs to spend beyond their means to try and avoid going down.

TOUGH, it's called business. Widnes gave Dennis Betts a coaching role and bought a plastic pitch, hardly a loss to the game.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:46 pm  

Trainman wrote:

I agree with al lot of what you say but still think licensing is the way to go.

Assumptions are being made that with a franchise system it has to be a closed shop. It doesn’t. If a club has the ambition, the infrastructure and the finances there is no reason the franchised league couldn’t be expanded. We have a system now that some teams play others 3 times. If SL grew we’d end up with some teams playing others only once. Doesn’t matter with a play off to determine the winners.

Once the league has grown enough to support two mandatory full time leagues then in can be split with promotion and relegation re-introduced.

I see the point that some have made that some teams are relegated because of poor decisions on their part but that’s not necessarily the case. The current system effectively pushes clubs to spend beyond their means to try and avoid going down.

The difference is that in the NFL the governing body owns the franchise. They don't have to worry about the clubs.

In SL the incumbent clubs own the game and would own the franchise structure so their own self interest will always mean.

Fewer team to keep TV money to themselves
Incumbent teams favoured over better long term outside prospects.

At least with p&r, the clubs can't nobble the process from the inside.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:04 pm  

If you finish bottom of your league, down you go..

It is that simple

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:12 pm  

RoyBoy29 wrote:

If you finish bottom of your league, down you go..

It is that simple

These are the rules as it stands and therefore, someone will go down this year and someone will be promoted.

What I do think will happen sooner rather than later though, is we will see a 14 or even 16 team SL with franchise/licenses. There will be the usual moaning from clubs who will feel that they "coulda/shoulda/woulda", but the reality is that without a sugar-daddy or 10,000 regulars, all teams will struggle to survive.
The fact that Leeds of one of 4 sides dicing with the drop is no excuse to change the rules mid-season.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:22 pm  

Unless the current players improve their attitude, Widnes could find themselves getting relegated from the championship. Obviously the announcement that they will go part time next season, I doubt they all gave a 100% in their 62-0 thrashing at Bradford, although I'm sure the Bulls played some great rugby.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:31 pm  

I was just using Widnes as an example. Whether they deserve to be in SL is a separate debate.

I feel as a sport we need to make some real tough decisions to move forward. Franchises would allow those decisions to be made.

Set a minimum criteria to apply. The league then decides whether to approve & expand the league or not based on the application and the potential benefits to the sport. Any team that is admitted then has the security to build strong foundations and grow.