Re: Could Sam Tomkins get an early mark for his return to Wi : Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:36 am  

JEAN CAPDOUZE wrote:

You are talking rubbish. That statement would be rejected by most rugby league commentators in Australia.

I have watched almost every Warriors game this year. You probably haven't.

Regardless of how many games you have seen, you obviously haven't a clue.

funny enough i have watched every game, and sam tomkins has had as many if not more great games than shaun johnson.

He is struggling because there is still zilch structure to the warriors game, Bukuya offers no real threat going forward and sam is struggling to try and play off him that will improve with hoffman. Also why they still try to play split halves constantly is very frustrating it leaves no room on the flanks.

Kondrad Hurrell is the best warriors player by 10 miles and even he was being called to be dropped at the start of the season.

also sam needs to have a voice a bit more the amount of times Friend has pushed him out of dummy half when there is a scattered field is stupid. I will wait till he is settled more before knee jerking because one thing you can't knock sam is for is determination.

Re: Could Sam Tomkins get an early mark for his return to Wi : Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:02 am  

So when Brett Mullins, Matt King, Bradley Clyde, Tony Carroll, Mark Carroll, Tim Smith, Sean Rudder, Daniel Holdsworth, Matt Orford, Shane Elford, Lewis Brown and many many more NRL , SoO or even Australian international players come here, struggle or fail is that because we have better defences or study the opposition more. How come there's a list of SL players in the NRL who've taken the Ausie competition by storm.

The NRL is a higher standard than SL but give me a break from all this fawning and superlative competition worship.

Re: Could Sam Tomkins get an early mark for his return to Wi : Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:14 am  

JEAN CAPDOUZE wrote:

You are talking rubbish. That statement would be rejected by most rugby league commentators in Australia. Hurrell and Matulino in particular have been devastating in attack, and Johnson has been more consistently good than the majority of NRL scrum halves. He is certainly one of the five best half backs in the NRL.

I have watched almost every Warriors game this year. You probably haven't.

Regardless of how many games you have seen, you obviously haven't a clue.

No Capdouze, I'm not, your assertion re commentators is pure speculation and I wouldn't agree with them if they did. You're basing your whole argument on the ramblings of some hack journo that wouldn't recognise a good player if he stood right in front of her.

Hurrell started the season in very poor form and still isn't anywhere near at his best with only glimpses of his power running interspersed with average to poor decision making in attack and naivety in defence.

Your poster boy Matulino started well but has faded into his lazy habits again and hasn't impressed since the first couple of matches, one decent offload or drive every two or three games doesn't make you a superstar. NRL defences have worked Johnon out as well and he's not getting the freedom to use his agility and speed that he had in the last two seasons. His inability to dictate play and control a football team are one of the reasons the NZW are average at best.

You calling someone, anyone clueless is absolutely laughable.

Re: Could Sam Tomkins get an early mark for his return to Wi : Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:32 am  

The Avenger wrote:

So when Brett Mullins, Matt King, Bradley Clyde, Tony Carroll, Mark Carroll, Tim Smith, Sean Rudder, Daniel Holdsworth, Matt Orford, Shane Elford, Lewis Brown and many many more NRL , SoO or even Australian international players come here, struggle or fail is that because we have better defences or study the opposition more. How come there's a list of SL players in the NRL who've taken the Ausie competition by storm.

The NRL is a higher standard than SL but give me a break from all this fawning and superlative competition worship.

Its not that big of a list is it?
Sam and George Burgess
Graham
.................................?

Lots of the Aussies you mentioned were going to England on far longer or better paying contracts than they were offered in the NRL, their motivation was not to prove themselves in England, in some cases it was a higher paid jaunt in Europe with all of the perks and nothing to prove. ( I have never heard of a couple of the ones you mentioned)

Re: Could Sam Tomkins get an early mark for his return to Wi : Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:35 am  

Buggo wrote:

I am not sure if the press are queuing up to be honest.
The way they have fawned of the Burgii and Graham seems to be the exact opposite and at times cringe worthy.

I am not sure if Tomkins was that highly rated by many Aussies before he went over, carving up teams in the SL in the wide open spaces that the lower teams present is not transferable to the NRL in most cases and he was pegged for a poor defender and high ball risk a long time ago.

His pace seems to have diminished a little and he will always be on the slight side physically so I am not sure what he can do to improve.

It is extremely rare the Aussies rate anyone before they have played in the NRL. The difference between Tomkins and most other players that have gone over recently is Sam has gone for big money and with a big reputation. I've seen Slater 'embarrassed' on occasion, GI and the rest all make errors yet certain players seem to be immune from heavy criticism, they certainly don't use terms like "embarrassed". I'm pretty sure there will be members of the Aussie press who are licking their lips over the prospect of him 'failing' and will add extra pressure whenever they can. It's what they do.

Tomkins made his name coasting through gaps created by team structure. NZ play a different style and Sam plays a different role, he has to get used to that as well as a new culture and being on the other side of the world away from friends and family. Tomkins is without doubt a classy player, whether he can reach the levels of the best full necks in oz remains to be seen, that depends on a lot more things than just ability.

Re: Could Sam Tomkins get an early mark for his return to Wi : Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:42 am  

Buggo wrote:

Its not that big of a list is it?
Sam and George Burgess
Graham
.................................?

Lots of the Aussies you mentioned were going to England on far longer or better paying contracts than they were offered in the NRL, their motivation was not to prove themselves in England, in some cases it was a higher paid jaunt in Europe with all of the perks and nothing to prove. ( I have never heard of a couple of the ones you mentioned)

Morley, Ellis in recent years while Tom and Luke Burgess are doing OK as is Cooper, the point being that in percentage terms the number of SL players who go to the NRL and 'cut it' is very very high. How is that, if the SL is so poor?

With regard to your explanation of NRL players failing, that's just your assertion but if true that reflects very badly on the professionalism of a lot of so called better players, however I don't think your excuse is correct.

Re: Could Sam Tomkins get an early mark for his return to Wi : Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:50 am  

Eastbourne Warrior wrote:

It is extremely rare the Aussies rate anyone before they have played in the NRL. The difference between Tomkins and most other players that have gone over recently is Sam has gone for big money and with a big reputation. I've seen Slater 'embarrassed' on occasion, GI and the rest all make errors yet certain players seem to be immune from heavy criticism, they certainly don't use terms like "embarrassed". I'm pretty sure there will be members of the Aussie press who are licking their lips over the prospect of him 'failing' and will add extra pressure whenever they can. It's what they do.

Tomkins made his name coasting through gaps created by team structure. NZ play a different style and Sam plays a different role, he has to get used to that as well as a new culture and being on the other side of the world away from friends and family. Tomkins is without doubt a classy player, whether he can reach the levels of the best full necks in oz remains to be seen, that depends on a lot more things than just ability.

He has backed himself and chosen the Warriors for various reasons, one being they were the only team prepared to pay the transfer fee.
The Ball is in his court.
Lots of good players make mistakes, its just how often they make them or how unsure of themselves they appear.
Tomkins had never had a good defensive game IMO in every Test match I have seen him play he is always just a bit late to save the try coming in over the top or being used as a mat.
As the best player from England in a generation, I am not sure he can fall back on too many excuses.

Re: Could Sam Tomkins get an early mark for his return to Wi : Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:15 pm  

The Avenger wrote:

Morley, Ellis in recent years while Tom and Luke Burgess are doing OK as is Cooper, the point being that in percentage terms the number of SL players who go to the NRL and 'cut it' is very very high. How is that, if the SL is so poor?

With regard to your explanation of NRL players failing, that's just your assertion but if true that reflects very badly on the professionalism of a lot of so called better players, however I don't think your excuse is correct.

Well you said players in the NRL, that suggests current players not Kevin Ward etc.
Tom and Luke Burgess are just average club players, Tom has hardly played much first grade.

There have been plenty of instances of Australian players taking the money offered by English Clubs as the main motivator.
Money does influence people I am sure you would agree.

Back in the day where Brett Kenny was accused of deliberately throwing a ball over the side line because he wanted his season finished so he could go home.
Even a stand out player like Jamie Lyon that left his MOS award in the rented house that St Helens provided to him when he left.

How many players have cried off and gone home because of "family issues" LOTS

As far as English players that have been standouts in Australia? I can recall around 6 or 8 at most and that is going back for the last 10 years.


Morley
Ellis
Sam Burgess
George Burgess
Graham
Carney

I am scratching past that.

The ones that didn't do so well
Scott Moore
Worrincy
Richie Mathers
Tansey
Thorman
Mark Flanagan
Its hard to remember the players that fail to make grade and disappear.

Re: Could Sam Tomkins get an early mark for his return to Wi : Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:52 pm  

Worrincy was barely an SL player. Moore, Thorman weren't big SL players, not really setting the world alight.

Mathers was a decent youngster who did pretty well before a terrible injury. Tansey wasnt even first choice at Leeds when he went and was a well known drinker.

Re: Could Sam Tomkins get an early mark for his return to Wi : Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:31 pm  

Some of the posts on here are one-eyed to say the least.

At Wigan, he played in the most disciplines and well drilled sides in world RL as the player who finished set moves, scoring a hat full.

That's what NZW signed him for. However, he's being used as a second pivot on either side outside Townsend on the left (who's atrocious) and Johnson on the right (who couldn't stick to a set move if his life depended on it).

Basically, the side he's playing in and the role he's being asked to do are totally different to his days at Wigan.

Some people really want to see him fail, which is quite sad, and it clouds their judgement. Yeh, he's made mistakes in defence, but in attack he's simply not being afforded the opportunity to have the impact he did at Wigan.