Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:00 am  

Fully wrote:

So now you're acknowledging that there was enough there to justify foul play and therefore the disallowing of any such try that may have been scored by acknowledging that it was a "cynical attempt to disrupt a player"

Your defence of it is getting worse. I give in. Not only that, you seem to be inferring things in my posts I've never said. Never once I've said that Flower charges into Hohaia like a raging bull on heat swinging his arm like a wrecking ball, trying to knock Hohaia's head to Timbuktu.

You seem to be labouring under the description of 'clocked him'. Let me rephrase: Flower moves his arm into the back of Hohaia's head.

No, it wasn't foul play, contact between two players running in the same direction is allowed within the laws of the game and I've never, ever seen a player penalized for knocking another player to the ground who got in his way while both were chasing the kick. They were nowhere near the ball and it would've been absolutely ludicrous to even consider giving a penalty in that situation.

Again, there's no way you would claim that there was anything wrong with the initial collision if it hadn't ended up with Flower punching an unconscious man on the ground. There are escorts and physical contact between chasing players on literally every single attacking kick, it just happens that in this case the contact was between a 12 stone halfback and a 17 stone prop, only one winner there. And then the halfback for some reason decided to sprint out of his position in order to elbow the prop in the jaw.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:07 am  

bewareshadows wrote:

WOw you've caught it too.

Best log off as it looks like RLfans might have a catching virus.

The first is not clumsy. Flower is not some giant mindless troll. He swings the arm and clocks Lance from behind.

The AUP does not allow us to post the actual footage, so yes you can all spin it that actually it was all Lances fault and the GF should be re run.

But the video clip is clear Flower uses his right arm and swings it into Lances head. End of.

Night

Perhaps Hohaia shouldn't have made it his goal to obstruct Flower. None of this would have happened.

All I see in the kick chase is Hohaia watch Flower and then deliberately and cynically step into his path. Flower shoves him to the ground, albeit aggressively, perhaps with a bit of a whack but but not particularly bad by any measure, despite the howls of outrage by a desperate few. Hohaia then pursues Flower and flies in with an elbow to the face.

Hohaia picked a fight he lost. Flower went too far with the final punch, but he was hardly unprovoked.

End of. Night. Woteva. Tool.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:08 am  

It's allowed if it's shoulder to shoulder, both players are running in the same direction and don't alter their run. HTH. It wasn't.

I've seen plenty of penalties given for people being shoved to the ground in back play or taken out off the ball.

As for your second point, it depends how the situation transpires. Had Flower put the ball down and been celebrating, I'm pretty sure Hohaia would have made a big fuss, which would then have been picked up on the Sky replays afterwards, even if Bentham awarded the try and hadn't referred it.

Had it been referred, I'm reasonably confident it'd have been disallowed for foul play and/or for affecting the ability of Hohaia to have an opportunity to prevent the try (if Flower can get there, he surely can!). If it was an accidental collision where Hohaia is as culpable as Flower then it may be play on but it wasn't.

You're right (possibly) in that it gets more attention because of the resulting incidents because you look for a) a motive; and b) some context to the overall situation.

By the way, it wasn't Hohaia's elbow. His elbow is clearly visible in the picture. It was his forearm.

[Durham Giant]

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:09 am  

Madderzahatter wrote:

I think we all need to get a grip. If Flower had stopped after the first punch nobody would be giving two hoots. Flower just needs to come out, apologise and we can all move on. There's been worse on a rugby field (O'Gara getting battered by McRea in RU being one)... The PR won't be great for the next day or two, but it's PR nevertheless...

Wrong.
The Macrae one was not as bad because the player was in a position to protect himself. He did manage too put his hands up.

Hohaia was unconscious.

The only way anyone will see that incident is an unconscious player being attacked.

That is what makes it so bad.

The PR for this will be absolutely terrible.

Bearing in mind all the press about concussion in sport etc. Attacking a player who is already unconscious just makes it incredibly bad publicity for the sport.

This is not biff. regardless of cronus and headhunter justifying it / trying to contextualize it this is possibly the worst thing that a player could do on a rugby pitch.

The fact it happened at our showpiece event live just exacerbates the whole thing.

Flower will be banned for at least 8 games justifiable.

He may get extra games on top because the RFL have no option but to make an example. Whilst that is unfair it is the reality.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:17 am  

headhunter wrote:

No, it wasn't foul play, contact between two players running in the same direction is allowed within the laws of the game and I've never, ever seen a player penalized for knocking another player to the ground who got in his way while both were chasing the kick. They were nowhere near the ball and it would've been absolutely ludicrous to even consider giving a penalty in that situation.

Again, there's no way you would claim that there was anything wrong with the initial collision if it hadn't ended up with Flower punching an unconscious man on the ground. There are escorts and physical contact between chasing players on literally every single attacking kick, it just happens that in this case the contact was between a 12 stone halfback and a 17 stone prop, only one winner there. And then the halfback for some reason decided to sprint out of his position in order to elbow the prop in the jaw.

Wow! The first incident isn't a "collision" flower clobbers him round back of head. He has his arm out FFS. Hohaia then does take Flower out late. But he's not spineted 15m to take him out, he's about a metre away from ball. He's just decided to give one back to Flower for what he did earlier. But let's not go over top like he deserves punching in head while unconscious on ground. It was a penalty. Even if Hohaia did something that warranted a red card you cannot justify what Flower did.

It was the worst act of thuggery I have seen on a field and he deserves a long long ban.

[Durham Giant]

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:25 am  

Steve Bunce @bigdaddybunce
Follow
I'm assuming that Ben Flower likes prison food - he has to be nicked for that assault. That's a UFC inspired second punch, savage.

Andrew Voss @AndrewVossy
Follow
Letting fans in the UK know, Australians waking up now to see Ben Flower's punch in the sport headlines.No tries ..just the act of thuggery.

Daily Telegraph

ENGLAND’S rugby league showpiece match has been marred by one of the most sickening punches ever seen on a sporting field.

Will it bring fans in , will it help the game to expand, will it attract sponsors.

RL where you can beat up unconscious opponents live on TV in a cup final..

Even events off the pitch no matter how bad do not bring the game into dispute as much as this.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:28 am  

Cronus wrote:

Perhaps Hohaia shouldn't have made it his goal to obstruct Flower. None of this would have happened.

Blimey. That's a bit harsh isn't it. You can't justify an attack that could easily have killed a player because he obstructed a player chasing a kick.

Cronus wrote:

All I see in the kick chase is Hohaia watch Flower and then deliberately and cynically step into his path. Flower shoves him to the ground, albeit aggressively, perhaps with a bit of a whack but but not particularly bad by any measure, despite the howls of outrage by a desperate few.

Fine, other people are exaggerating that a bit.

Cronus wrote:

Hohaia then pursues Flower and flies in with an elbow to the face.

This is where you Pie bias kicks in. Flies with an elbow to the face? Why don't you repost that still image to prove it. Hohaia's movement into Flower was an aggressive shove and nothing more than a penalty was needed there. If Flower doesn't react, he'd have received a penalty and you may well have had enough to beat the mighty Champions.

Cronus wrote:

Hohaia picked a fight he lost. Flower went too far with the final punch, but he was hardly unprovoked.

So you go from criticising people for exaggerating, through exaggerating massively yourself, then the two net off with you understating the final punch.

IMO the final punch was a criminal act. He hit an unconscious man and could easily have killed him. Do that outside of a rugby match and he'd have spent tonight in prison and most likely been in court shortly. He should face at least a Police investigation now (It's been reported to the Police, but in reality he'll likely get away with it as Hohaia will no doubt do the pro-rugby player thing and ask for no further action to be taken) and a very severe ban from the RFL. It's definitely not a 3-4 game ban like some are suggesting. It's a Suarez style ban they need to be looking at.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:31 am  

Fully wrote:

It's allowed if it's shoulder to shoulder, both players are running in the same direction and don't alter their run. HTH. It wasn't.

Correct, it wasn't, it was a cynical act by Hohaia to watch Flower's run and deliberately block him.

As for your second point, it depends how the situation transpires. Had Flower put the ball down and been celebrating, I'm pretty sure Hohaia would have made a big fuss, which would then have been picked up on the Sky replays afterwards, even if Bentham awarded the try and hadn't referred it.

Had it been referred, I'm reasonably confident it'd have been disallowed for foul play and/or for affecting the ability of Hohaia to have an opportunity to prevent the try (if Flower can get there, he surely can!). If it was an accidental collision where Hohaia is as culpable as Flower then it may be play on but it wasn't.

You're right (possibly) in that it gets more attention because of the resulting incidents because you look for a) a motive; and b) some context to the overall situation.

Rubbish. Hohaia tried to block Flower and failed. Flower banged him out the way - aggressively, yes, but nothing particularly outrageous - and Hohaia didn't like it. Flower doesn't give him a second glance and when he takes the forearm to the face I'd be amazed if he knew who it was or why it had happened.

By the way, it wasn't Hohaia's elbow. His elbow is clearly visible in the picture. It was his forearm.

That must be ok then. Are forearms to the face legal?

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:47 am  

Flower's punch on the ground was shocking. Everything else is irrelevant, it was the unique nature of his cowardly act that shocked everyone who saw it. The simple point understood by 99% is that this really has no place on a rugby field, and neither should the thuggish Mr. Flower have for the first few months of the season if not longer. Lucky lad if Inspector Knacker doesn't become involved, as his act certainly crossed the line by a very long margin. Record ban, and thoroughly deserved. But, whatever consequences follow, they will be nothing compared to the realisation that he has cost his team-mates and his club and its fans a Grand Final win. That's what he has to live with, and there's nothing he can do about it now.

Hohaia was away with the fairies when Flower lost his marbles:

I suspect it would take a similar blow to the head for Mr. Flower to get any sleep tonight.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:03 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Blimey. That's a bit harsh isn't it. You can't justify an attack that could easily have killed a player because he obstructed a player chasing a kick.

Killed him?? Deary me.

:lol: This is where you Pie bias kicks in. Flies with an elbow to the face? Why don't you repost that still image to prove it. Hohaia's movement into Flower was an aggressive shove and nothing more than a penalty was needed there. If Flower doesn't react, he'd have received a penalty and you may well have had enough to beat the mighty Champions.

The next time Saints player receives a 'shove' to the face with a forearm I'll be sure to remind you of this. In the meantime it's clear Hohaia runs in and makes contact with his forearm, the pictures tell the rest.

So you go from criticising people for exaggerating, through exaggerating massively yourself, then the two net off with you understating the final punch.

Is that you typing? Maybe a pet or small child?

IMO the final punch was a criminal act. He hit an unconscious man and could easily have killed him. Do that outside of a rugby match and he'd have spent tonight in prison and most likely been in court shortly. He should face at least a Police investigation now (It's been reported to the Police, but in reality he'll likely get away with it as Hohaia will no doubt do the pro-rugby player thing and ask for no further action to be taken) and a very severe ban from the RFL. It's definitely not a 3-4 game ban like some are suggesting. It's a Suarez style ban they need to be looking at.

I realise you're trolling as ever but come on, get your facts right. Find me a jab like that that has killed. Go on, I challenge you. One/two punch deaths do happen, but are nearly always a punch followed by the victim's head impacting the pavement or other solid surface following a punch.

Flower will and should kop a big ban, and quite rightly, but to paint him as some monster is incorrect. It's not in his character, indeed he has never been charged for foul play during his time with Wigan. That second punch was exceptional, very wrong and will be dealt with accordingly.