Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:02 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote: The RFL brought in more sponsorship money from having numerous different sponsors than they did from having 1 single sponsor. What a load of tripe!

SmokeyTA wrote: The RFL brought in more sponsorship money from having numerous different sponsors than they did from having 1 single sponsor. What a load of tripe!

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:05 pm  

Tre Cool wrote:

These kind of comments are incredible. ST are so cheap for top level RL. You get more commitment from League 2 soccer fans. And that truly is dross.

I'e no idea whether League 2 in soccer is dross or not, but if it is dross quality-wise then at least it's meaningful dross (all fixtures count for something in the race for either promotion or the avoidance of relegation) as opposed to the licensed meaningless dross which encapsulates the SL product at this present time.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:06 pm  

William Eve wrote: What a load of tripe! and......

William Eve wrote: What a load of tripe! and......

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:07 pm  

William Eve wrote:

If the SL product really was as brilliant as some claim it to be, season tickets wouldn't have to be so cheap and clubs wouldn't have to hand out cheap ticket offers via groupon, wowcher, or on a bogof or buddy fiver basis. I don't believe it's primarily the economy to blame for all these offers either. It's because the RFL and the clubs themselves know deep down the SL product and it's current licensed 14 team, top 8 play-off structure doesn't provide an interesting regular season of the requisite quality and intensity to attract enough fans for 13 home games unless they are given the lot for a very cheap price. On top of the cheap season tickets, we are now witnessing an increasing number of ticket offers for individual regular season fixtures because fans have got that used to the product being devalued in so many ways... structurally, on the pitch and pricewise... they now balk at paying full price. We know this is true because you only have to check out the dreadful attendances in the SL play-offs or in the Challenge Cup rounds and semi finals (ie, the only remaining meaningful fixtures) to gauge the true popularity of the sport these days.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this - for me, the biggest problem is the 8 team play-off. It's too easy for the bigger clubs to stroll through the season, which then has a knock on effect, as the bottom clubs get a bit of an easier ride through the regular season whilst the top clubs don't 'put their all in' - A top 5 or 6 play-off would mean that a team like Leeds couldnt afford to take it easy in games against Salford, Cas, Widnes etc, meaning those teams would have to improve their standards, as they'd be playing a full strength, fully commited Leeds, rather than a half baked, half arsed Leeds.

As Tre Cool pointed out, the cost of attending a SuperLeague game in comparison to other sports is relatively low, and even with the current economy, is good value for money. Therefore I'd agree that the economy certainly isnt the main factor. If the product was as good as it could and should be, people would still find the money to attend the games. However, with the current structure, and the current economy, it easy to see why people would choose to spend their hard earned another way.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:07 pm  

William Eve wrote:

I'e no idea whether League 2 in soccer is dross or not, but if it is dross quality-wise then at least it's meaningful dross (all fixtures count for something in the race for either promotion or the avoidance of relegation) as opposed to the licensed meaningless dross which encapsulates the SL product at this present time.

Were you under the impression there was automatic promotion and relegation from and to League 2 football?

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:13 pm  

Superted wrote:

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this - for me, the biggest problem is the 8 team play-off. It's too easy for the bigger clubs to stroll through the season, which then has a knock on effect, as the bottom clubs get a bit of an easier ride through the regular season whilst the top clubs don't 'put their all in' - A top 5 or 6 play-off would mean that a team like Leeds couldnt afford to take it easy in games against Salford, Cas, Widnes etc, meaning those teams would have to improve their standards, as they'd be playing a full strength, fully commited Leeds, rather than a half baked, half arsed Leeds.

Follow that logic through and you would have more half-baked half-arsed teams who were playing meaningless fixtures as fewer would be playing for the play-offs and only a few clubs are effected (to their massive detriment) by relegation.

put it another way, would we have seen two close fought fixtures between Leeds and Wakefield in the last few weeks of this year under a top 5 system? Or would we have seen a couple of walkovers with no intensity as Wakefield were safe from relegation and nowhere near the play-offs?

Whilst Leeds wouldn’t be able to take it easy against Wakefield/Salford/Hull/Cas/Bradford. Those teams would certainly be able to take it easy against Leeds.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:31 pm  

William Eve wrote:

I'e no idea whether League 2 in soccer is dross or not, but if it is dross quality-wise then at least it's meaningful dross (all fixtures count for something in the race for either promotion or the avoidance of relegation) as opposed to the licensed meaningless dross which encapsulates the SL product at this present time.

That's utter rubbish, there are loads of meaningless games in soccer, at all levels and attendances do not decline because of them. Ditto with the NRL in Oz. It has nothing to do with it. The unfairness of licencing may have put off fans in the lower leagues but for SL it is completely irrelevant. There is a certain apathy from RL fans when it comes to loyalty and commitment. The reason is probably cultural and historical but nothing to do with 'meaningful games'. Whatever that means.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:41 pm  

Tre Cool wrote:

That's utter rubbish, there are loads of meaningless games in soccer, at all levels and attendances do not decline because of them. Ditto with the NRL in Oz. It has nothing to do with it. The unfairness of licencing may have put off fans in the lower leagues but for SL it is completely irrelevant. There is a certain apathy from RL fans when it comes to loyalty and commitment. The reason is probably cultural and historical but nothing to do with 'meaningful games'. Whatever that means.

I think to blame 'cultural and historical' reasons for the apathy is burrying your head in the sand.

I've been a season ticket holder for over 20 years, and it's got to the point where I see no advantage in a season ticket, and have started picking and choosing my games. And it's not even the money, I dont want to waste my time travelling to watch Leeds v Salford when the game on the telly is probably going to be a much more intense game. There are many long term fans who are becoming a little dis-illusioned with the low intensity games.

SmokeyTA wrote:

Follow that logic through and you would have more half-baked half-arsed teams who were playing meaningless fixtures as fewer would be playing for the play-offs and only a few clubs are effected (to their massive detriment) by relegation.

put it another way, would we have seen two close fought fixtures between Leeds and Wakefield in the last few weeks of this year under a top 5 system? Or would we have seen a couple of walkovers with no intensity as Wakefield were safe from relegation and nowhere near the play-offs?

Whilst Leeds wouldn’t be able to take it easy against Wakefield/Salford/Hull/Cas/Bradford. Those teams would certainly be able to take it easy against Leeds.

I'd agree with that point, reducing the amount of teams in the play-offs is not the only change needed, but it is certainly one of them.

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:07 pm  

Superted wrote:

I'd agree with that point, reducing the amount of teams in the play-offs is not the only change needed, but it is certainly one of them.

I think reducing the number of teams in the play-offs is a huge red-herring, as is the cutting of the size of the league, as is a return to any form of P+R, especially the one that we have.

The one and only way we can reduce the number of games which lack intensity, is by improving the standard of the league as a whole. Until we have 12/14 teams who are all roughly the same quality, then we will have games which are ‘meaningless’ and ‘lack intesity’

(also the argument regarding crowds falls apart completely when we remember that last year, under a 14 team, 8 team play-off, franchised league, we set records.)

Re: Opening SL weekend sees attendances tumbling by 12.66% : Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:33 pm  

I don't post on this forum all that much anymore, but I keep an eye on it.

William's use of Saints as an example of the supposed problem is slightly disingenious. I've been watching them since 1992/1993 season. Back then in a year when we ran Wigan close to knock them out of the cup and made the premiership playoffs, Saints home league average was circa 7k and this got me thinking:

Being the sad act that I am (and because I'm sat in a bar on my own in Outer Mongolia right now with little else to do), I've looked back through the stats on this site which go back to 2000 for Superleague. Whilst this year Saints crowds are down a couple of thousand, if we take the current home average of 11160, it is interesting that in the last 13 years, on only 3 other seasons have Saints registered a higher crowd average. These were 2012 (new stadium year), 2010 (final year at Knowsley road, and a contender for the title) and 2007 (finished top of the division, defending title from previous year and cup holders previous year). Contrast that with this year, where until last week, Saints were heading for their worst league finish since the advent of Super league, and with a team and coach who are in a transition year I'm not sure the picture that this thread is trying to paint is accurate. Saints have also suffered teething problems which given the inclement summer last year, were always going to dissuade certain fans from going to the match until they got the issues surrounding weather proofing of the ground sorted. I for one can't wait to go when this is finished as it will make a massive difference to the atmosphere in the ground.

Whilst I agree with William's main thrust (that crowds are down this year) if you look back through the stats for all clubs, you'll see that for the last 17 years since the advent of Super league, the general trend for crowds in the top division for regular season games is to rise steadily by a few hundred to 1000 a year. Saints average has risen from 7k to the point where now we're dissapointed if we don't crack 12k. I recall a time when only games against Wigan and Leeds would top 10k, and the full houses against Wigan on Good Friday or Boxing day did a great deal to hide the 5k gates against lesser sides in our end of season average.

In that time Adult prices for games have risen from £5 to stand at Knowsley Road, to over £20 for a ticket with an equivalent view in the North stand, so somewhere someone's making money as that's easily outstripping inflation! It is now impossible to rock up to a game and occupy an area near the half way line, as all these seats are taken by season ticket holders. I experienced the novelty last season of not being able to make a derby match against Wigan as the game was sold out weeks in advance. As a more casual fan these days due to living in Scotland now, I've been unable to stand and watch my team any more as it's nigh on impossible to get a ticket for the home end terrace. All this would have been unthinkable in 1995. Whilst it's a personal pain for me, in a strange way, I'm glad it's sometimes hard to get a ticket.

Crowds now are far more consistent (bar the odd blip due to blizards) than they used to be. Fans appear now to pick their games far less. Last year I went to see Saints play Wakefield at home at what was a terrible match, and there were 14000 on (and some argument about the gate IIRC, the crowd on this site is 13k and that is the figure I've used). This year the same game got 12k. Apart from last year Saints have never drawn a gate that large against Wakefield in the full time professional era and I would guess not at all since the 1960s. OK 1 - 2k less than last year, but at least 1.5k more than any gate against that team in my living memory.

I know this is focusing on one club, but I know from perusing attendances over the years due to my rather sad analytical nature, that crowds across the board have been creeping up. One could draw an analogy with the stock market: The trend has been to increase year on year if you analyse the data for a 20 year period, however there are blips on the way, such as the crash of a few years ago. If you draw a graph of Saints attendances vs time it looks remarkably like the FTSE 100. Overall growth for the last 20 years, with blips along the way for exceptional years, and dips for crashes. We're seeing a dip right now, but it's not a massive dip overall, and I honestly don't beleive for all the flack they get, the owners, administrators, etc. are going to sit on their laurels and do nothing to arrest any drop. After all, we spend money on the game, but they all earn from it, so they have far more of a vested interest in improving gates over the long term than we do. I don't think RL should be complacent, but we should bear the last 20 years in mind when comparing crowds with each other rather than just year on year. If you're selective about your time-frame, anyone can show a drop or an increase using statistics. Only by sampling a longer time period can you identify real trends, and the trend for SL crowds is inexorably up since the competition began and in my mind that can only be a good thing.

Saints averages since 200 below for refrerence. Note these are only home games and do not include any Magic weekends as these figures skew the average. I beleive in some cases playoff figures are included depending on the year. If anyone is that bothered they can argue about this but I couldn't be bothered to strip these out.

2000 8808
2001 8801
2002 9925
2003 9818
2004 9502
2005 10622
2006 10720
2007 11264
2008 10642
2009 10985
2010 11575
2011 7867 (played at Widnes)
2012 13080
2013 11160