Re: HKR sign Green : Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:17 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

You can't have a massive go at Wigan, as they do produce the players. Just because they end up at other clubs (a la Brown and Robinson, both of whom are in the England squad) isn't the end of the world.
They do give youth a chance and also sign english players - gleeson/fielden/coley/Pryce. As I stated earlier, sooner or later all clubs are going to have the reduced number of imports and English talent will be given the chance it deserves. The players they've got on the way in from Melbourne are good ones, so will improve the league.
Two Wigan youngsters have just signed for Wakefield.

Again, its not the guys coming in for Wigan this year who are the problem, Its the average players who are already there. The Cameron Phelps and George Carmonts.

Look at Charnley, he will benefit much more from being first grade next year than he will from another year sat behind Carmont.

A good example would be Ainscough, here is a kid with with stacks of potential but some big deficiencies in his game. Imagine how much better as league, as a sport, and as a national side we would be if Wigan, rather than going out and signing a phelps, or Roberts, who arent world class, needed to work with Ainscough and make the best of him, rather than replace him with a ready made aussie import? We are never going to catch up to Australia filling our league with players not good enough for them, we need to produce our own, better players.

Whilst Wigan should be congratulated for their youth development, their commitment to giving british players a chance isnt good enough.

Re: HKR sign Green : Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:22 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Again, its not the guys coming in for Wigan this year who are the problem, Its the average players who are already there. The Cameron Phelps and George Carmonts.

Look at Charnley, he will benefit much more from being first grade next year than he will from another year sat behind Carmont.

A good example would be Ainscough, here is a kid with with stacks of potential but some big deficiencies in his game. Imagine how much better as league, as a sport, and as a national side we would be if Wigan, rather than going out and signing a phelps, or Roberts, who arent world class, needed to work with Ainscough and make the best of him, rather than replace him with a ready made aussie import? We are never going to catch up to Australia filling our league with players not good enough for them, we need to produce our own, better players.

Whilst Wigan should be congratulated for their youth development, their commitment to giving british players a chance isnt good enough.

Daryl Goulding, who has come on leaps and bounds this year, has been keeping out roberts and phelps, so doesnt really work that argument does it?

Plus every player has been given a chance this year when it has been earned, the only two who have not improved the weak aspects of their games are feka and ainscough. Hence they have been allowed to leave.

Re: HKR sign Green : Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:34 pm  

Sharpy_4a wrote:

Daryl Goulding, who has come on leaps and bounds this year, has been keeping out roberts and phelps, so doesnt really work that argument does it?

quite the opposite, it pretty much supports that argument. If Roberts and Phelps are 2nd choice for Wigan, then they shouldnt be at Wigan. The player acting as cover for Daryl Goulding should be the next Daryl Goulding, not a 29 year old Australian

Plus every player has been given a chance this year when it has been earned, the only two who have not improved the weak aspects of their games are feka and ainscough. Hence they have been allowed to leave.

its a bit of a self-fulfilling argument here. However the fact remains, that we would be better placed as a sport to be forcing clubs like Wigan to invest more time and energy in players like Ainscough and doing everything we can, as a sport to make sure we are helping these players fulfil their potential.

I think the fact no-one at Wigan could teach Ainscough how to basically catch a ball is indicative of the problems we have in bringing through new players. This part isnt particularly aimed at Wigan, it is just a good example.

Re: HKR sign Green : Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:42 pm  

Sharpy_4a wrote:

Daryl Goulding has been keeping out roberts

No too sure about that,Roberts was one of your stars before he was injured, wasn't he?

SmokeyTA wrote:

snip

In a couple of years the foreign guys exempt from the quota at Wigan and HKR will have reduced in number as they've retired and moved on. You mentioned Ainscough, well he's got himself a super league club for next year, depsite the deficincies you've mentioned, probably because Bradford aren't allowed to sign a Joe Dakiotoga character from down under.
Wakefield were masters of filling their ranks with journey men ockers, now they're signing Josh Veivers and Chris Dean. Cas have signed Emmit, a fringe player from Saints. All of this goes to show there's more oppotunities for young british players than a couple of years ago.

The quota rules are slowly taking effect. We just need to stick with them and in say 3 years we should be severely down on foreigners in the SL.

Re: HKR sign Green : Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:46 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

quite the opposite, it pretty much supports that argument. If Roberts and Phelps are 2nd choice for Wigan, then they shouldnt be at Wigan. The player acting as cover for Daryl Goulding should be the next Daryl Goulding, not a 29 year old Australian

its a bit of a self-fulfilling argument here. However the fact remains, that we would be better placed as a sport to be forcing clubs like Wigan to invest more time and energy in players like Ainscough and doing everything we can, as a sport to make sure we are helping these players fulfil their potential.

I think the fact no-one at Wigan could teach Ainscough how to basically catch a ball is indicative of the problems we have in bringing through new players. This part isnt particularly aimed at Wigan, it is just a good example.

But they didnt start the season as second choice, infact only injury made them miss games and gouldings good play was rewarded by keeping his place. Under noble, he would have been out as soon as roberts, (who was in amazing form before his injury) or phelps returned to fitness. I also very much doubt phelps will be here next year anyway.

Maybe your onto something with ainscough, why didnt the coaching staff think to teach him how to catch? Or is it more likely that they have tried, however somethings just dont sink in like having to jump when your opposing winger jumps to give your already short stature a fighting chance. Also I dont think you can teach a rugby brain, and i dont think that lad has one, granted he is fast.

Re: HKR sign Green : Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:46 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

The quota rules are slowly taking effect. We just need to stick with them and in say 3 years we should be severely down on foreigners in the SL.

Then you will all be as good as Harlequins RL eh


Face facts.

Superleague NEEDS Aussies and Kiwis playing the game. Sadly for English RL 'homegrown' players simply arent good enough.


I read somewhere that Harlequins have more English players than any other club....and look how good they are.

Re: HKR sign Green : Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:48 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

No too sure about that,Roberts was one of your stars before he was injured, wasn't he?
In a couple of years the foreign guys exempt from the quota at Wigan and HKR will have reduced in number as they've retired and moved on. You mentioned Ainscough, well he's got himself a super league club for next year, depsite the deficincies you've mentioned, probably because Bradford aren't allowed to sign a Joe Dakiotoga character from down under.
Wakefield were masters of filling their ranks with journey men ockers, now they're signing Josh Veivers and Chris Dean. Cas have signed Emmit, a fringe player from Saints. All of this goes to show there's more oppotunities for young british players than a couple of years ago.

The quota rules are slowly taking effect. We just need to stick with them and in say 3 years we should be severely down on foreigners in the SL.

Yeah was in awesome form, cant play on a broken leg though and goulding has kept his place due to good play, which has resulted in him being picked for england, so a win win all round really, another good english lad, which is the point isnt it?

Re: HKR sign Green : Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:58 pm  

Sharpy_4a wrote:

Yeah was in awesome form, cant play on a broken leg though and goulding has kept his place due to good play, which has resulted in him being picked for england, so a win win all round really, another good english lad, which is the point isnt it?

Yes, I think the focus (for me) is once the quota has got clubs down to the 3 or 4 that is the goal, clubs will make sure that they only fill those quota spots with quality imports that will genuinely benifit the sport in terms of playing levels and entertainment.

I think most would agree that of all the imports in SL, around this total numebr of 3 per club (42) would be classed as decent imports and the rest are just making up the numbers.

Re: HKR sign Green : Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:23 pm  

Sharpy_4a wrote:

But they didnt start the season as second choice, infact only injury made them miss games and gouldings good play was rewarded by keeping his place. Under noble, he would have been out as soon as roberts, (who was in amazing form before his injury) or phelps returned to fitness. I also very much doubt phelps will be here next year anyway.

But they should have done, if Goulding was capable of the form he was, it should be unthinkable that a club would give a shot to the likes of Phelps. We should be looking at choices like that as ridiculous incompetence. But we dont, for some reason in this country we make excuses for it.

Maybe your onto something with ainscough, why didnt the coaching staff think to teach him how to catch? Or is it more likely that they have tried, however somethings just dont sink in like having to jump when your opposing winger jumps to give your already short stature a fighting chance. Also I dont think you can teach a rugby brain, and i dont think that lad has one, granted he is fast.

4 years or so ago, Manu Vatuvai was in exactly the same position. His catching and ball handling skills were embarrassing, he was dropping balls like they were hot potatoes. In England he would have been dropped, and gone on to struggle along at a lower league club or at the very best a lower SL club and his team would have gone to the NRL and picked up a half-decent winger with experience. But because they dont have that option in the NRL, they were forced to work with him, improve his abilities and make a World Class player out of him. We just dont do that, we havent done it with Ainscough, we havent done it with Kevin Penny. Both have the raw attributes to make it to the top. They really do, I know how tall poppy syndrome works in this country and how quickly people like to take a dig at players like Penny, but he has all the physical attributes to make it the very top, the problems he had would have been coached out of him at reserve grade and then first grade level in Australia.

Thats what we need to get to in this country, and it seems to me we are very very very far away from that.

Re: HKR sign Green : Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:41 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

But they should have done, if Goulding was capable of the form he was, it should be unthinkable that a club would give a shot to the likes of Phelps. We should be looking at choices like that as ridiculous incompetence. But we dont, for some reason in this country we make excuses for it.

4 years or so ago, Manu Vatuvai was in exactly the same position. His catching and ball handling skills were embarrassing, he was dropping balls like they were hot potatoes. In England he would have been dropped, and gone on to struggle along at a lower league club or at the very best a lower SL club and his team would have gone to the NRL and picked up a half-decent winger with experience. But because they dont have that option in the NRL, they were forced to work with him, improve his abilities and make a World Class player out of him. We just dont do that, we havent done it with Ainscough, we havent done it with Kevin Penny. Both have the raw attributes to make it to the top. They really do, I know how tall poppy syndrome works in this country and how quickly people like to take a dig at players like Penny, but he has all the physical attributes to make it the very top, the problems he had would have been coached out of him at reserve grade and then first grade level in Australia.

Thats what we need to get to in this country, and it seems to me we are very very very far away from that.

We do make quick decisions on players goulding is a perfect example he's only 22, but has been around for years. So i agree there. However Roberts form at the early part of the season would have kept any winger in the country out, he was awesome, some of the best displays ive seen.

Still im happy with the development of wigan kids, farrell, mossop, tomkins boys tuscon and the rest coming through are looking good for a few years for both wigan and england hopefully barring injury.

Anyhow im sorry for sending this off topic!