Re: St Helens and Wigan : Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:33 pm  

RogerMoore wrote:

Look more to develop promising players and youngsters. Most teams seemed to go for 1 or 2 big name (usually Aussies) signings rather than work on player development. There are examples of players currently playing Super League who came from the Championship and were patient, developed their game and broke through. Benefiting the clubs who were prepared to be patient with the development. I'm not suggesting it is the total answer. Don't really want to name names about individual clubs, but as Warrington fans themselves criticise the club policy of big money signings at the expense of development I'll use them as an example. It's not all about money, if it were Warrington would have won several Grand Finals.

Very much so, you don't need to rely on "money for success" its more what you can achieve and promote at Academy level and as you say what superleague see from the championship clubs. For the saints half the team are from the academy and didn't spend a lot of money getting Walmsley from Dewsbury and Batchelor from York those 2 are now international players.

Stabilty in players and coach are another important factor, quite a few clubs have a large turnaround of players, you could say the current top 4 clubs at the moments are not doing a lot of chopping and changing.

At the moment Wigan and Saints are the benchmark they are not jumping on the money merry go round we just don't have a salary cap to make that work.

[Mild Rover]

Re: St Helens and Wigan : Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:25 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

Very much so, you don't need to rely on "money for success" its more what you can achieve and promote at Academy level and as you say what superleague see from the championship clubs. For the saints half the team are from the academy and didn't spend a lot of money getting Walmsley from Dewsbury and Batchelor from York those 2 are now international players.

Stabilty in players and coach are another important factor, quite a few clubs have a large turnaround of players, you could say the current top 4 clubs at the moments are not doing a lot of chopping and changing.

At the moment Wigan and Saints are the benchmark they are not jumping on the money merry go round we just don't have a salary cap to make that work.

It’s very hard to prove a causative effect but it is noticeable that the end of Bradford’s successful era coincided with the money running out, and they’ve continued to struggle while poor despite having a pretty productive academy. The couple of times poor relation teams (Cas and Salford) have made a run to the GF it wasn’t based on academy products. Salford didn’t have one and afaik it still isn’t confirmed whether Cas will be allowed to keep theirs in its current form, because it was so unproductive at that time. They got their short-term stuff sorted out and that is the best that can be hoped for without sustained and substantial spending. There just aren’t any counter examples in the SL era.

Incumbency as a top team, and the associated stability/continuity are fair points. I’d say that is second most important after money.

Re: St Helens and Wigan : Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:05 pm  

It’s ironic. One could say Saints and Wigan are actually the most narrow minded of all of SL. They were at the forefront of the split with the RFL, the appointment of Robert Elstone, and now cutting the league down to 10 so they can have more TV money. Wigan and Saints need less influence on the game because they are the ones causing damage.

Saints are top of the league but can’t sell their ground week in week out? Yet other teams get slandered for their support?

Re: St Helens and Wigan : Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:22 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

It’s very hard to prove a causative effect but it is noticeable that the end of Bradford’s successful era coincided with the money running out, and they’ve continued to struggle while poor despite having a pretty productive academy. The couple of times poor relation teams (Cas and Salford) have made a run to the GF it wasn’t based on academy products. Salford didn’t have one and afaik it still isn’t confirmed whether Cas will be allowed to keep theirs in its current form, because it was so unproductive at that time. They got their short-term stuff sorted out and that is the best that can be hoped for without sustained and substantial spending. There just aren’t any counter examples in the SL era.

Incumbency as a top team, and the associated stability/continuity are fair points. I’d say that is second most important after money.

There have only been 4 clubs who have been Superleague Champions and all 4 had a good academy product. If their was no money at all to buy overseas players of reasonable quality (which is a distinct possibilty) then Wigan and Saints would still be in the top 2 with Leeds slowly creeping up that particular ladder.

For that reason, its just my opinion the grass roots via the academy pathway is the primary importance above anything else.

Re: St Helens and Wigan : Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:32 pm  

thickorthin wrote:

It’s ironic. One could say Saints and Wigan are actually the most narrow minded of all of SL. They were at the forefront of the split with the RFL, the appointment of Robert Elstone, and now cutting the league down to 10 so they can have more TV money. Wigan and Saints need less influence on the game because they are the ones causing damage.

Saints are top of the league but can’t sell their ground week in week out? Yet other teams get slandered for their support?

I,m thinking the other way round its the lower clubs that are holding back the growth of Superleague, those clubs have vetoed some of the expansion ideas and instead of the standard of the lower clubs coming up to the top 4 clubs the game is stagnated .

Saints will never sell out their ground because their is very little away support, Huddersfield Giants 4th in the league only brought 95 fans last night and most of the other lower clubs are similar 100 to 200 fans and that includes Leeds as well. There is also the fact that SKY can show games on Thurs-Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon and then you have C4 joining the party.

[Mild Rover]

Re: St Helens and Wigan : Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:48 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

For that reason, its just my opinion the grass roots via the academy pathway is the primary importance above anything else.

You are entitled to it but I wholeheartedly disagree (sometimes aggressively so, when feeling provoked ). That said, a good academy can somewhat mitigate the challenges faced by the whipping boy clubs, and a poor one can exacerbate them. Rovers’ has not offered a good return on investment over getting on for 15 years and I do hope that changes. Obviously we’ll struggle to hold onto good players when it is only ever the same handful of clubs that win trophies and stretch the limits of the cap, but even so. If it doesn’t improve, there’s always the example of Cas who got much better when they focused less on academy products… as a consolation hope.

Re: St Helens and Wigan : Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:58 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

You are entitled to it but I wholeheartedly disagree (sometimes aggressively so, when feeling provoked ). That said, a good academy can somewhat mitigate the challenges faced by the whipping boy clubs, and a poor one can exacerbate them. Rovers’ has not offered a good return on investment over getting on for 15 years and I do hope that changes. Obviously we’ll struggle to hold onto good players when it is only ever the same handful of clubs that win trophies and stretch the limits of the cap, but even so. If it doesn’t improve, there’s always the example of Cas who got much better when they focused less on academy products… as a consolation hope.

But all clubs face that to differing degrees. Saints have just lost Grace to union, Wigan have likely to lose KPP to the NRL (and have lost a few over the last few years). HKR have seen a couple come in from the academy over the last few years, I’m curious, why do you think you will struggle to keep Mike’s Lewis at the club for example?

It also extends beyond the academy as well. Both Saints and Wigan have really structured pathways into the first team. It’s actually quite rare you will see a youngster dropped into Saints/Wigan rip it up and instantly become a starter these days, as they will have gone through the phases of their debut year, being a fringe player, breaking through, and only then being seen as a first choice. Welsby is a really good example of that. Too many clubs (especially those like Warrington) will dump a promising kid from the academy in the first team, expect them to perform in 20+ games and eventually break their confidence and development.

[Mild Rover]

Re: St Helens and Wigan : Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:21 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

I,m thinking the other way round its the lower clubs that are holding back the growth of Superleague, those clubs have vetoed some of the expansion ideas and instead of the standard of the lower clubs coming up to the top 4 clubs the game is stagnated .

Saints will never sell out their ground because their is very little away support, Huddersfield Giants 4th in the league only brought 95 fans last night and most of the other lower clubs are similar 100 to 200 fans and that includes Leeds as well. There is also the fact that SKY can show games on Thurs-Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon and then you have C4 joining the party.

Maybe it is just a bit of a broken sporting ecosystem. I don’t think one set of clubs is more to blame than any other.

It does feel like a bit of dead end though. I mean there’s Leeds fans being newly bored, that’s quite funny. But it is finding interest in other people’s boredom!

The big 5 European football leagues are dominated by small numbers of clubs. Bayern Munich have won the last 10 German titles, Juventus won Serie A 9 times in a row before Inter an Milan won one a piece, PSG have won 8 of the last 10 in France. Atletico Madrid have only twice broken the Real Madrid-Barcelona duopoly since Valencia were Spanish Champions in 2004. So it isn’t just us.

I’m sure those champion clubs have good cultures too, and tell fans of Stuttgart, Montpellier, Empoli and Celta Vigo all about it, and how they should be doing more to make their leagues more competitive. I’m sure they appreciate the advice just as much as I do that of fans of Wigan and St Helens.

[Mild Rover]

Re: St Helens and Wigan : Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:59 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

But all clubs face that to differing degrees. Saints have just lost Grace to union, Wigan have likely to lose KPP to the NRL (and have lost a few over the last few years). HKR have seen a couple come in from the academy over the last few years, I’m curious, why do you think you will struggle to keep Mike’s Lewis at the club for example?

It also extends beyond the academy as well. Both Saints and Wigan have really structured pathways into the first team. It’s actually quite rare you will see a youngster dropped into Saints/Wigan rip it up and instantly become a starter these days, as they will have gone through the phases of their debut year, being a fringe player, breaking through, and only then being seen as a first choice. Welsby is a really good example of that. Too many clubs (especially those like Warrington) will dump a promising kid from the academy in the first team, expect them to perform in 20+ games and eventually break their confidence and development.

If Lewis continues to progress, and Rovers go with ‘patience’ rather than ‘ambition’ or our ambition is just constrained by finances, then at some point it seems likely he might want the professional satisfaction of competing for trophies. Like LMS and Tony Clubb, as examples that spring randomly to mind. Being associated with winning teams in his prime will also likely secure him the option of better deals later in his career.

You make a good point about structured pathways. Saints and Wigan can run through the season on cruise control, giving youngsters confidence without too much pressure. They’ll still be top 4. If the lad makes a mistake you win by 10 rather than 16 (or 30 rather than 36), or even if you lose this game you’ll win 20 others. Our youngsters make a mistake, and it costs us a win when we might have to wait a month for another, or they lose in each of their first four appearances… it’s a tough route. And maybe that job as a landscape gardener and playing part-time for Doncaster starts to feel more attractive. In other sports underdog teams are reputed to raise their games against top teams, but in SL they’re more seen as a ‘free hit’ and the attitude is increasingly for teams to save themselves for more winnable games. It’s teams like Rovers that are targeted as beatable. The way around all that is maybe to go for loan deals to the Championship… but without much or any SL experience we’re sending them to Workington and Cornwall so they’re not winning even at that level!

Re: St Helens and Wigan : Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:29 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

If Lewis continues to progress, and Rovers go with ‘patience’ rather than ‘ambition’ or our ambition is just constrained by finances, then at some point it seems likely he might want the professional satisfaction of competing for trophies. Like LMS and Tony Clubb, as examples that spring randomly to mind. Being associated with winning teams in his prime will also likely secure him the option of better deals later in his career.

You make a good point about structured pathways. Saints and Wigan can run through the season on cruise control, giving youngsters confidence without too much pressure. They’ll still be top 4. If the lad makes a mistake you win by 10 rather than 16 (or 30 rather than 36), or even if you lose this game you’ll win 20 others. Our youngsters make a mistake, and it costs us a win when we might have to wait a month for another, or they lose in each of their first four appearances… it’s a tough route. And maybe that job as a landscape gardener and playing part-time for Doncaster starts to feel more attractive. In other sports underdog teams are reputed to raise their games against top teams, but in SL they’re more seen as a ‘free hit’ and the attitude is increasingly for teams to save themselves for more winnable games. It’s teams like Rovers that are targeted as beatable. The way around all that is maybe to go for loan deals to the Championship… but without much or any SL experience we’re sending them to Workington and Cornwall so they’re not winning even at that level!

When was the last time Saints or Wigan signed a highly rated young player from another SL team? Certainly in recent years all of Saints signings have been either from the NRL, or the lower divisions. We went through a phase of signing established SL journeymen during the Cunningham era, but I can’t really think of anything similar to Jake Truman for example. Agitating and disrupting highly talented juniors tend to be a Warrington trait (see Matty Nicholson, they were pushing for Truman last year etc). On the specific Lewis example, Saints have Dodd and Wigan Smith, so I think it’s unlikely there’s a risk of poaching.

Part of the reason Saints and Wigan have been successful is they tend to be able to pay less than market value for the players coming through their academy, giving them deeper squads, and pick and choose the opportunities they give. They also tend to be more patient. Ben Davies had to wait until 23 for his chance this year with Saints, same with Sam Royle whom HKR have just