Re: A better way? : Mon May 10, 2010 11:15 pm  

God you're pushing some boat out there.
Kevin Penny's better than half of them

Re: A better way? : Mon May 10, 2010 11:22 pm  

Dico wrote:

God you're pushing some boat out there.
Kevin Penny's better than half of them

i wouldnt take Kevin Penny over any of them, who would you take him ahead of?

Re: A better way? : Mon May 10, 2010 11:43 pm  

its good seeing the salary cap start to work in SL

the decline of leeds this year is a very pertinant example and a reflection of the competition developing

its good seeing new clubs at the top of the table

st helens / leeds GFs were getting really boring

Re: A better way? : Tue May 11, 2010 2:49 am  

SmokeyTA wrote:

well they get (and deserve) some exemption for developing their GB players. They would currently have a total of 104 points from a squad of 24, so they would need to drop 4 points and gain a player.

Considering any player the signed would be an minimum of 4 points, they would likely need to drop at the very least 1 of their 6 pointers, and that would be on the basis they also dropped a 4 pointer and promoted 3 youngsters (at 2 points)

So you're saying Leeds would be weaker under this system? That sort of contradicts your long held opinion on excellence doesn't it?

Re: A better way? : Tue May 11, 2010 6:55 am  

SmokeyTA wrote:

And?

btw, Briers was included in the British squad for the tri-nations 3 seasons ago, Solomona won the tri nations 4 seasons ago. We are hardly harking back the 50's here

Player's ability changes over time. Just because a player played for GB in 2001 you are saying they are the same as a player who has been a regular international for years. Go back to any point in history simply increases the range of quality of players you have in your 'star' group.

SmokeyTA wrote:

the groups arent that large, and as you can see, there isnt a huge discrepancy in quality. But yes, like all systems ever possibly invented there will be players whose value under a system doesnt match their value to the team, which is why we have coaches and we allow them to build their teams. I would have no sympathy with a team who decided to waste 6 points on Bob Beswick, its not an issue with the system, its just poor recruitment, no club would be forced to sign him

You've opened it up to a huge number of players by including those who played for Wales and Ireland. Making it incredibly difficult for players who have represented these teams (who range in quality massively) to make it in SL.

There is a system that has been invented that closely matches a players value to a team to how much they count under the cap. It's called a salary cap. For instance Solomona will cost less to Warrington than he did to Bradford as a reflection of his loss of form since that tri nations victory.

Re: A better way? : Tue May 11, 2010 10:10 am  

SmokeyTA wrote:

i wouldnt take Kevin Penny over any of them, who would you take him ahead of?

At 21 years of age and looked way out of his depth for three years i'd still take him over D Hodgson, Gilmour, Wild (shot to pieces), Reardon, Platt, Sykes, Calderwood, Cusack and Lauaki all of which offer absolutely nothing as 'stars' in a team. He's bloody gash but at least K. Penny can do something special once in a while

Re: A better way? : Tue May 11, 2010 8:35 pm  

Barnacle Bill wrote:

So you're saying Leeds would be weaker under this system? That sort of contradicts your long held opinion on excellence doesn't it?

They would need to lose some of the players they have brought in. I am more than happy for us to improve ourselves and the quality of our league through developing quality young players. It is the sustainable way

Re: A better way? : Tue May 11, 2010 8:44 pm  

SBR wrote:

Player's ability changes over time. Just because a player played for GB in 2001 you are saying they are the same as a player who has been a regular international for years. Go back to any point in history simply increases the range of quality of players you have in your 'star' group.

No im not, im saying that it would be up to a coach to build the best squad they could under these considerations.

You've opened it up to a huge number of players by including those who played for Wales and Ireland. Making it incredibly difficult for players who have represented these teams (who range in quality massively) to make it in SL.

the number isnt that big. You are massively over-estimating it again.

If a player isnt good enough to get a spot, they arent good enough to get a spot.

There is a system that has been invented that closely matches a players value to a team to how much they count under the cap. It's called a salary cap. For instance Solomona will cost less to Warrington than he did to Bradford as a reflection of his loss of form since that tri nations victory.

No it doesnt. If this were the case we could simply pay players centrally and share them between clubs, but as we know there are many many variables which go into which team and for how much a player decides to play.

Ellis for instance choosing to play for leeds for less than he was offered at Wakefield. Hardly sharing the talent. In fact in this instance the SC only entrenched the positions

Re: A better way? : Tue May 11, 2010 8:45 pm  

Dico wrote:

At 21 years of age and looked way out of his depth for three years i'd still take him over D Hodgson, Gilmour, Wild (shot to pieces), Reardon, Platt, Sykes, Calderwood, Cusack and Lauaki all of which offer absolutely nothing as 'stars' in a team. He's bloody gash but at least K. Penny can do something special once in a while

I disagree, i would take all those players over Penny.

And that is where the quality of coach comes in. If he thinks he can get better value from Penny he is free to pick him up

Re: A better way? : Wed May 12, 2010 12:44 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

They would need to lose some of the players they have brought in. I am more than happy for us to improve ourselves and the quality of our league through developing quality young players. It is the sustainable way

We're in agreement there. The development of young players is not an overnight thing though is it and clubs are at different stages of their youth development maturity.

Hull KR for example being relative newcomers to SL are still a bit behind many other clubs, while we have brought some players through to the SL squad from our youth development system, by all accounts our best prospects are still in the under 18's (where we have more or less had parity in recruitment with our more established neighbours) so it may be a few years yet before this system (or at least this aspect of it) would be entirely fair.

Perhaps it might be more viable if the intention to implement this system was declared for some stage in the future, allowing all clubs a resonable time to bring their youth development system to a broadly similar level.

Even then there is still the prospect of wealthy teams signing up the best young talent because they can pay more than other clubs in that area.