Re: A better way? : Mon May 03, 2010 11:43 pm  

wiganermike wrote:

As Roofaldo said the Salary Cap was put into place to save clubs from themselves to prevent them spending more than they could to compete and going to the wall. It's just that since then the RFL and SKY have chosen to focus on the secondary effect (a by-product in reality) of evening the competition so most people have forgotten the real reason that the SC exists.

yet the SC has no relevance to how much a club can afford to pay, it is much higher than some, much lower than others.

While the points system would mean clubs couldn't hoard the top players it does not mean that the other clubs could afford to take those discarded players. For sake of example :- Harlequins and Salford make enquiries about a (non-rep) centre at Leeds but on finding out his salary demands cannot afford him due to their finances (no cap limit added to Leeds much larger turnover means they can price out most other clubs by paying larger average salaries without risking meltdown). Said centre gains international caps and as a result Leeds cannot keep him due to the points increase. He has to go, Quins and Salford have the points to spare but know that they cannot afford his salary (and will face financial ruin if they buy him) so he ends up going to Warrington who can afford his wage and they offload two fringe players to get under the points. The fringe players end up at Quins and Salford. Top player still goes to a bigger club and the poorer clubs feed off the scraps.

this example would happen the same under an a salary cap. If Leeds cannot afford him under the cap, and Salford/quins cannot afford him anyway yet Warrington can he will go to warrington, whether you use a points system or a salary cap.

besides, the limit on points would also have the affect of limiting wages, not through an arbitrary number of a total wage bill, but through the market affects of supply and demand. If Leeds have 2 rep centres, whether the 3rd rep centre wants £100k or £1M Leeds cant keep him as his value to the squad is less about his wage demands and more about the players elsewhere in the squad they would need to let go to accomodate a rep centre in reserve

You cannot expect any player to take a pay cut simply because the clubs that can afford his points cannot meet his current wage. To attempt to compete and without the restraints of a cash cap clubs like Salford and Quins would be forced to spend more than they could afford and risk folding. Players like the centre in my example would be more likely to end up going to RU as the only RL clubs that were rich enough to pay their salary would not be able to employ them due to the points system. Such players would then have only two options take a (pretty much enforced) pay cut or cross codes and get their current wage.

you can expect that because thats what would have to happen. A players value is only their value on the open market, if a club isnt willing to pay them £100k then they will have to accept less whether you have a points system or a hard cap

A points system would limit the wage escalation between RL clubs because the price is limited by the points but it would allow them to compete with RU, and even offer an alternative to RU for RU players.

in your example, player A plays for Leeds as a junior and progresses to a first team player and then to international level. Under this proposal he would be worth 4 points on the points cap as a developed player to Leeds and 6 to everyone else.

This would mean when negotiating his next contract, Leeds can afford to keep him under the points cap (regardless of wage) but Warrington would likely need to release either 1 developed rep player, or 2 experienced non rep players to fit player A under their cap. This has the affect of not only reducing his value to Warrington but also reducing the amount of players on which Warrington could afford to pay under the cap. So any extra they pay to Player A is offset by the fact they would need to release players B and C (though maybe not fully) this would limit the escalation in wages for player A.

This would also limit the amount of rep players at one club which would ensure an even spread of talent as it would limit which clubs could be in for which players meaning clubs like Quins and Salford would be more likely to pick up a star as there would be more who couldnt get a gig at each club, its simple supply and demand

Re: A better way? : Tue May 04, 2010 9:18 am  

SmokeyTA wrote:

though this would be countered by the fact that these players these clubs brought through to international representation would be discounted as developed players

That's true, but these teams might still be disadvantaged. Say Catalans bring a player through to represent France at an early age and then for one reason or another the player is no longer needed (or wanted), perhaps a new coach and new systems or loss of form etc. Would that player be more difficult for Catalans to move on because he would be more expensive to other clubs? Might they be stuck with him?

Re: A better way? : Tue May 04, 2010 2:43 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

yet the SC has no relevance to how much a club can afford to pay, it is much higher than some, much lower than others.

this example would happen the same under an a salary cap. If Leeds cannot afford him under the cap, and Salford/quins cannot afford him anyway yet Warrington can he will go to warrington, whether you use a points system or a salary cap.

besides, the limit on points would also have the affect of limiting wages, not through an arbitrary number of a total wage bill, but through the market affects of supply and demand. If Leeds have 2 rep centres, whether the 3rd rep centre wants £100k or £1M Leeds cant keep him as his value to the squad is less about his wage demands and more about the players elsewhere in the squad they would need to let go to accomodate a rep centre in reserve
you can expect that because thats what would have to happen. A players value is only their value on the open market, if a club isnt willing to pay them £100k then they will have to accept less whether you have a points system or a hard cap

A points system would limit the wage escalation between RL clubs because the price is limited by the points but it would allow them to compete with RU, and even offer an alternative to RU for RU players.

in your example, player A plays for Leeds as a junior and progresses to a first team player and then to international level. Under this proposal he would be worth 4 points on the points cap as a developed player to Leeds and 6 to everyone else.

This would mean when negotiating his next contract, Leeds can afford to keep him under the points cap (regardless of wage) but Warrington would likely need to release either 1 developed rep player, or 2 experienced non rep players to fit player A under their cap. This has the affect of not only reducing his value to Warrington but also reducing the amount of players on which Warrington could afford to pay under the cap. So any extra they pay to Player A is offset by the fact they would need to release players B and C (though maybe not fully) this would limit the escalation in wages for player A.

This would also limit the amount of rep players at one club which would ensure an even spread of talent as it would limit which clubs could be in for which players meaning clubs like Quins and Salford would be more likely to pick up a star as there would be more who couldnt get a gig at each club, its simple supply and demand

My point was that changing from a cash salary cap to a points quota system would not alleviate the problems that we have with differences in squad standards due to vast differences in income for different clubs. The cash ceiling as it currently stands fixes the average salary at £60k - £65K. Removing the cash ceiling would allow previously restricted salaries to climb above that. You only have to look at RL pre SC to see that clubs with larger turnovers will offer players more cash to price out competitors and that the smaller clubs will overspend to get players to keep up and will ultimately fail and go to the wall. Most of the SL clubs cannot pay full cap.

You are fooling yourself if you think that with only so many points to use and no rule to restrict squad salary that bigger clubs will say to their players "we can keep you here but your wage is limited to a certain amount" due to the points quota and that players will meekly accept. The principal deciding factor in player wages is what the player's agent can get any club in either code (or even AFL) to pay him. Agents will play off one club against another as they do in sports with no SC like soccer and as they still do in RL with the SC. The pay cut hits the agent as well as the player so he will steer his client into RU with the guarantee of the same salary if needing to.

The next Keith Senior or Martin Gleeson wil still require a similar level of salary to those two. A player getting representative honours will still demand a higher wage than one who hasn't played representative RL. Regardless of the number of points they have on their quota a club like Quins or Salford is still unlikely to be able to pay more than one top level player (if they can even afford to do that) without facing going out of business. There is also still going to be the type of Richie Myler situation, he was getting Rep honours at Salford but still couldn't wait to get away and join a bigger club with more hope of silverware. This despite Salford offering in their words to make him the best paid player ever at Salford. He still wanted to play for a bigger club over one of the smaller ones and other players will feel the same. You cannot force players to join any club against their wishes

Changing to a points quota will not solve any problems we have now, they will still exist. The only way the squad strengths will balance is by every club growing their businesses to a point where all are able to pay the same total salary (full cap ideally). Then a player will be able to go to any club and get the same wage and all clubs will have an equal chance of competing for honours by being able to pay players of the same standard as the other clubs throughout their squad.

Bringing in a salary cap floor at a low level initially and requiring all SL clubs to be able to prove they can pay that minimum amount to get a licence would be a way to work towards a truly even playing field. The floor could then be raised over a sequence of licence cycles. This would drive all clubs to grow their businesses and increase turnover to get in and would have more chance of eventually evening all 14 clubs than any points quota would.

[tb]

Re: A better way? : Tue May 04, 2010 2:55 pm  

wiganermike wrote:

My point was that changing from a cash salary cap to a points quota system would not alleviate the problems that we have with differences in squad standards due to vast differences in income for different clubs.

Nop. Sorry, I've read this four times and still don't see the logic.

Re: A better way? : Tue May 04, 2010 5:08 pm  

tb wrote:

Nop. Sorry, I've read this four times and still don't see the logic.

Quite simply, some clubs in SL cannot afford to pay as much in salaries for their squad as others. Salford for example do not have the resources of Leeds. Not all clubs can afford to spend full cap and so do not.

Changing to a points system rather than a salary cap to constrain club squads may mean that one big club will have to release a player to fit into the points quota (as they have to with the SC anyway). It does not however alter the fact that the smaller clubs cannot afford to pay these players so the top players will still gravitate towards bigger clubs with bigger turnover.

Re: A better way? : Tue May 04, 2010 6:24 pm  

Barnacle Bill wrote:

That's true, but these teams might still be disadvantaged. Say Catalans bring a player through to represent France at an early age and then for one reason or another the player is no longer needed (or wanted), perhaps a new coach and new systems or loss of form etc. Would that player be more difficult for Catalans to move on because he would be more expensive to other clubs? Might they be stuck with him?

For the length of his contract probably, which isnt really any different to now.

In fact if they were able to negotiate a settlement with him it would actually put them in a better position, for instance, Player A has 2 years to run on his contract, they could offer to pay him 18 months of his contract off to leave, this is something they couldnt do in an SC world as it would count massively against one years cap

Re: A better way? : Tue May 04, 2010 6:41 pm  

wiganermike wrote:

My point was that changing from a cash salary cap to a points quota system would not alleviate the problems that we have with differences in squad standards due to vast differences in income for different clubs. The cash ceiling as it currently stands fixes the average salary at £60k - £65K. Removing the cash ceiling would allow previously restricted salaries to climb above that. You only have to look at RL pre SC to see that clubs with larger turnovers will offer players more cash to price out competitors and that the smaller clubs will overspend to get players to keep up and will ultimately fail and go to the wall. Most of the SL clubs cannot pay full cap.

it doesnt need to. If Warrington want to go out and pay £1m a season to all 25 players on their books it doesnt matter, they will still have to create a squad of 25 players that dont break the points ceilling and would simply be massively overpaying some very average players, this wont make a club spending a reasonable amount any less competitive.

the issue isnt how much they are paying but the make up of their squad. The can only fit 6-10 top quality players under the ceiling cap, and the more of the 'top' players they have the lower the quality of the other players they would need to make up their squad, whether they pay them a million or a tenner they would still need to fall under the points value

You are fooling yourself if you think that with only so many points to use and no rule to restrict squad salary that bigger clubs will say to their players "we can keep you here but your wage is limited to a certain amount" due to the points quota and that players will meekly accept. The principal deciding factor in player wages is what the player's agent can get any club in either code (or even AFL) to pay him. Agents will play off one club against another as they do in sports with no SC like soccer and as they still do in RL with the SC. The pay cut hits the agent as well as the player so he will steer his client into RU with the guarantee of the same salary if needing to.

no, im not. Im saying that it doesnt matter. If a club wants to keep a player, the wage demands are secondary to their points value. A club can negotiate with a player their wage however they like but if they cant fit them under the points cap they cant offer them anything. And they cant play one team off against another because only a few teams in each case would be able to offer each player a contract. All clubs would be forced to have a similar make up of squad, 6-10 top quality players (between 36 and 60 points) between 5 and 10 2nd tier players (between 20 and 40 points) and around 10 3rd tier players (about 20 points) how a club decides to do that is up to them but it limits the amount of players of quality each club can employ. Which limits the demand for tier 1 and 2 players, which limits their value stopping wages massively escalating

The next Keith Senior or Martin Gleeson wil still require a similar level of salary to those two. A player getting representative honours will still demand a higher wage than one who hasn't played representative RL. Regardless of the number of points they have on their quota a club like Quins or Salford is still unlikely to be able to pay more than one top level player (if they can even afford to do that) without facing going out of business. There is also still going to be the type of Richie Myler situation, he was getting Rep honours at Salford but still couldn't wait to get away and join a bigger club with more hope of silverware. This despite Salford offering in their words to make him the best paid player ever at Salford. He still wanted to play for a bigger club over one of the smaller ones and other players will feel the same. You cannot force players to join any club against their wishes

yes they will. they will want more money, the same as they do under the salary cap. However Richie Myler as a non-developed international player probably wouldnt get a gig at Warrington because likely couldnt fit him under the points cap. This would mean Salford werent in competition for Myler, very few of the big clubs would be, meaning Salford et al could offer him a lower wage, and he would be left with a choice to accept it or retire. If union came in for him, then Salford could either choose to increase his wage to compete or let him go, which is a better situation than now where they couldnt compete.

Changing to a points quota will not solve any problems we have now, they will still exist. The only way the squad strengths will balance is by every club growing their businesses to a point where all are able to pay the same total salary (full cap ideally). Then a player will be able to go to any club and get the same wage and all clubs will have an equal chance of competing for honours by being able to pay players of the same standard as the other clubs throughout their squad.

nonsense, there will always be big clubs and little clubs, it is naive to think otherwise. What you really mean is that when the SC is at the level of the lowest common denominator the top quality players will move around on 3 year contracts taking their success with them, as has happened in Australia. We will also lose a lot of the top players to other sports. A points quota evens the playing talent in EXACTLY the same way as an SC, it just allows clubs to pay players what they are worth, attract better players and compete with union if they so wish (no one is going to force them to do so)

Bringing in a salary cap floor at a low level initially and requiring all SL clubs to be able to prove they can pay that minimum amount to get a licence would be a way to work towards a truly even playing field. The floor could then be raised over a sequence of licence cycles. This would drive all clubs to grow their businesses and increase turnover to get in and would have more chance of eventually evening all 14 clubs than any points quota would.

no, it wont, you have already contradicted yourself by
using the example of Myler accepting less at Warrington, the same as Ellis did at Leeds, which shows that the big clubs will be able to attract the the better players on lower wages, a hard salary cap only entrenches that position

Re: A better way? : Tue May 04, 2010 6:43 pm  

wiganermike wrote:

Quite simply, some clubs in SL cannot afford to pay as much in salaries for their squad as others. Salford for example do not have the resources of Leeds. Not all clubs can afford to spend full cap and so do not.

Changing to a points system rather than a salary cap to constrain club squads may mean that one big club will have to release a player to fit into the points quota (as they have to with the SC anyway). It does not however alter the fact that the smaller clubs cannot afford to pay these players so the top players will still gravitate towards bigger clubs with bigger turnover.

and you are still missing the point that the bigger clubs can only fit so many players under the points cap, they can only fit so many players of a certain quality under the points cap so all the players cannot possibly gravitate towards the bigger clubs because the bigger clubs cannot employ them whether the players are asking for £10 or £10m

Re: A better way? : Tue May 04, 2010 10:18 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

and you are still missing the point that the bigger clubs can only fit so many players under the points cap, they can only fit so many players of a certain quality under the points cap so all the players cannot possibly gravitate towards the bigger clubs because the bigger clubs cannot employ them whether the players are asking for £10 or £10m

I understand that a points quota would mean that a club could only have a certain number of players of a certain quality in their squad. I read the article and understand mathematics. I also understand that a club that can only afford to pay a lot less on their squad (because their income is a lot smaller) will not be able to pick up a lot of the players that the richer clubs are forced to release without going bust in the process.

The players that are in this situation have only a 12 to 15 year career and will want to maintain their wage level. Those with demands beyond the spending capacity of the clubs that can fit them into the points quota will go to RU to get that wage so the weaker clubs won't necessarily strengthen from the system changing. You could end up with the competition as a whole being weakened (just as with a salary cap).

Neither system is ideal and neither is likely to produce the desired outcome. The title of the thread posed the question "a better way?" I just don't happen to think it is any better at doing what it sets out to do than the current system.

Re: A better way? : Tue May 04, 2010 10:32 pm  

wiganermike wrote:

I understand that a points quota would mean that a club could only have a certain number of players of a certain quality in their squad. I read the article and understand mathematics. I also understand that a club that can only afford to pay a lot less on their squad (because their income is a lot smaller) will not be able to pick up a lot of the players that the richer clubs are forced to release without going bust in the process.

The players that are in this situation have only a 12 to 15 year career and will want to maintain their wage level. Those with demands beyond the spending capacity of the clubs that can fit them into the points quota will go to RU to get that wage so the weaker clubs won't necessarily strengthen from the system changing. You could end up with the competition as a whole being weakened (just as with a salary cap).

Neither system is ideal and neither is likely to produce the desired outcome. The title of the thread posed the question "a better way?" I just don't happen to think it is any better at doing what it sets out to do than the current system.

But they cant do this anyway. If a club cant offer a player attractive enough wages because they simply cant afford them then they simply cant afford them, whatever cap system we use. And union isnt going to become suddenly more attractive to Player A at club A because Player B at Club B is paid more than him. Paying Danny Mcguire more doesnt make union more attractive to Stefan Ratchford, in fact it becomes less attractive as IF SALFORD WISH they can offer Ratchford terms to compete with union something that they cannot do now.

Im still curious as to how your logic has reached this point, i simply dont understand where you are coming from. I cant see how raising wages for some players will mean other players choose to go to union who wont now be offering more than they were previously because of this