Re: josh perry linked to st helens, nathan brown rumoured to nrl : Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:36 pm  

rover49 wrote:

Aren't they impartial

I was thinking of second row partner TBH

what with puletua? cna't see him been in the same team as perry ...............oh wait there your bringing up the newton crocker rumour again.

Bashfull twins against perry would be amusing if i'm honest[code][/code]

Re: josh perry linked to st helens, nathan brown rumoured to nrl : Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:17 pm  

cadoo wrote:

If Saints get a top draw prop forward to play alongside James Graham they will have a great pack IMO.

The starting front row would be good. But what's coming off the bench? Fozzard is leaving at the end of this season. So we need to buy a minimum of two useful metre makers. And with Puletua and Maurie not likely to be at Saints in two years - and no obvious props emerging through the junior ranks - there's more scouting and spending to be done.

Fortunately, we do have an enormous amount of talent emerging in the back row.

Re: josh perry linked to st helens, nathan brown rumoured to nrl : Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:38 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

The starting front row would be good. But what's coming off the bench? Fozzard is leaving at the end of this season. So we need to buy a minimum of two useful metre makers. And with Puletua and Maurie not likely to be at Saints in two years - and no obvious props emerging through the junior ranks - there's more scouting and spending to be done.

Fortunately, we do have an enormous amount of talent emerging in the back row.

I don't pretend to know much about the current Saints squad, but they way I see it is you have - for argument's sake - Perry and Graham starting. Puletua and Soliola in the second row with Wilkin at lock to replace the departing Flannery. Wheeler to move to centre and the possible signing of Shenton. Puletua and Soliola will make you big metres & will certainly be the biggest set of back row players in Super League.

Coming off the bench there is obviously Maurie Fa'asavalu and Bryn Hargreaves. Paul Clough might be around there as well. Okay, the impact is lost a little with Hargreaves & Maurie, but with the current salary cap restrictions on players wages and the decreasing quota it will have to do. Saints are in the same position as every other team in Super League. Same applies to Warrington with Morley and Carvell. The bench is not a strong as the starting two props, but it is difficult to afford four props of such quality. Some have to be just 'average/solid'.

As for the future, if no-one is coming through then you will have to replace Perry, Puletua and Maurie. It will be a struggle then. It might be worth doing a Leeds and investing in a young British prop forward. I think the Saints board had real high hopes for Hargreaves. He has done alright at Saints, but I think fans/coaches might hope for more as he matures and gets better with age. It's a long shot though. Certainly with a decreasing quota year on year you can't just replace them all with NRL players. Sure, you can get one or two, but eventually you will have to produce or find some British alternatives.

That's why the value of your own homegrown players is much more than just monetary and long-term stability. Wigan are in a good position - in the forwards - for the future with Paul Prescott, Eamon O'carroll and Ben Davies. Then there is the possibility of Mossop moving to prop in the future - signed a recent five year deal - and the probable return of Gareth Hock, who is believed to have bulked up considerably & is being tipped to return at prop.

Re: josh perry linked to st helens, nathan brown rumoured to nrl : Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:34 pm  

cadoo wrote:

I don't pretend to know much about the current Saints squad, but they way I see it is you have - for argument's sake - Perry and Graham starting. Puletua and Soliola in the second row with Wilkin at lock to replace the departing Flannery. Wheeler to move to centre and the possible signing of Shenton. Puletua and Soliola will make you big metres & will certainly be the biggest set of back row players in Super League.

Coming off the bench there is obviously Maurie Fa'asavalu and Bryn Hargreaves. Paul Clough might be around there as well. Okay, the impact is lost a little with Hargreaves & Maurie, but with the current salary cap restrictions on players wages and the decreasing quota it will have to do. Saints are in the same position as every other team in Super League. Same applies to Warrington with Morley and Carvell. The bench is not a strong as the starting two props, but it is difficult to afford four props of such quality. Some have to be just 'average/solid'.

As for the future, if no-one is coming through then you will have to replace Perry, Puletua and Maurie. It will be a struggle then. It might be worth doing a Leeds and investing in a young British prop forward. I think the Saints board had real high hopes for Hargreaves. He has done alright at Saints, but I think fans/coaches might hope for more as he matures and gets better with age. It's a long shot though. Certainly with a decreasing quota year on year you can't just replace them all with NRL players. Sure, you can get one or two, but eventually you will have to produce or find some British alternatives.

That's why the value of your own homegrown players is much more than just monetary and long-term stability. Wigan are in a good position - in the forwards - for the future with Paul Prescott, Eamon O'carroll and Ben Davies. Then there is the possibility of Mossop moving to prop in the future - signed a recent five year deal - and the probable return of Gareth Hock, who is believed to have bulked up considerably & is being tipped to return at prop.

Hargreaves has shown significant improvement this season. But it may be he's simply hit the form of his life - from which he'll soon return to prior mediocrity. Fozzard's career is winding down and if he does have another season left in him it'll be played out in the lower leagues.

The phrase has become threadbare, but it's as true as ever - Props Win Pots. If you don't have them you're nowhere - unless you're fielding the current Kangaroo back division, and even then it'd be a hard slog. Any team that has serious ambitions for the SL title MUST have a minimum of four good props. Preferably five. I'm not saying you can't win games with less. But over a long and arduous season it's practically impossible to sustain a challenge when the inevitable injuries come calling.

Aside from - possibly - your playmaker (or captain) the prop is the most valuable asset to the team. Without good props you could be conceding anywhere up to 30/40 metres to the opposition. And that's EACH PLAY. It doesn't take a genius to work out that such a disadvantage is terminal.

If I held the purse strings at Saints I'd throw a hefty chunk of the budget at my props. Even if it left me short to fund the back division. Fielding a modestly gifted group of wingers and centres would not concern me. With a great front row you don't NEED Greg Inglis in the backs. But you cannot win SL investing the other way around.

Right now Saints are doing pretty well. McManus is a good chairman who rescued the club from oblivion and damned near single-handedly managed the development of the new stadium. He has also spent wisely bringing in quality players (Lyon, Albert, Maurie, Fairleigh etc) and invested a significant amount of resources into an outstanding junior development system - the fruits of which are now beginning to show (Eastmond, Wheeler, Lomax, Dixon, Ashurst, Dean, Clough etc.)

We have cover in just about every position barring prop. And that is a worry. It's worth pointing out that Graham could well join the NRL exodus in two or three years. I certainly would (not least because of the pension). If Graham does go the worst case scenario is having to purchase an entire front row - starters and reserves in a short space of time. Right now I don't see how that could be achieved without a good deal of crockery being broken.

Re: josh perry linked to st helens, nathan brown rumoured to nrl : Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:43 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Hargreaves has shown significant improvement this season. But it may be he's simply hit the form of his life - from which he'll soon return to prior mediocrity. Fozzard's career is winding down and if he does have another season left in him it'll be played out in the lower leagues.

The phrase has become threadbare, but it's as true as ever - Props Win Pots. If you don't have them you're nowhere - unless you're fielding the current Kangaroo back division, and even then it'd be a hard slog. Any team that has serious ambitions for the SL title MUST have a minimum of four good props. Preferably five. I'm not saying you can't win games with less. But over a long and arduous season it's practically impossible to sustain a challenge when the inevitable injuries come calling.

Aside from - possibly - your playmaker (or captain) the prop is the most valuable asset to the team. Without good props you could be conceding anywhere up to 30/40 metres to the opposition. And that's EACH PLAY. It doesn't take a genius to work out that such a disadvantage is terminal.

If I held the purse strings at Saints I'd throw a hefty chunk of the budget at my props. Even if it left me short to fund the back division. Fielding a modestly gifted group of wingers and centres would not concern me. With a great front row you don't NEED Greg Inglis in the backs. But you cannot win SL investing the other way around.

Right now Saints are doing pretty well. McManus is a good chairman who rescued the club from oblivion and damned near single-handedly managed the development of the new stadium. He has also spent wisely bringing in quality players (Lyon, Albert, Maurie, Fairleigh etc) and invested a significant amount of resources into an outstanding junior development system - the fruits of which are now beginning to show (Eastmond, Wheeler, Lomax, Dixon, Ashurst, Dean, Clough etc.)

We have cover in just about every position barring prop. And that is a worry. It's worth pointing out that Graham could well join the NRL exodus in two or three years. I certainly would (not least because of the pension). If Graham does go the worst case scenario is having to purchase an entire front row - starters and reserves in a short space of time. Right now I don't see how that could be achieved without a good deal of crockery being broken.

All good points but not necessarily true.

Leeds have won the last three Super League titles and only have international prop forward in Jamie Peacock. Ali in the backrow has been a rock alongside him when it's mattered but I'd hardly class their other backs as exceptional players.

Whilst having a quality front undoubtedly makes it easier, it is by no means the be all and end all. Leeds have quality spread through their 17, their front row bar Peacock is probably their biggest weakness.

Re: josh perry linked to st helens, nathan brown rumoured to nrl : Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:41 am  

cadoo wrote:

I think the Saints board had real high hopes for Hargreaves.

Hargreaves was signed as a 5th choice prop, and if you believe the story, Daniel Anderson hadn't watched him play but was advised he was an extremely commited trainer and clubman and gave him the thumbs up on that!?
He has been very mediocre at times, but has had apparent recent unpturn in form. Props do get better with age - Prescott, who's around the same age, has now come good. I do think he'd be an able back rower - he has played there a few times and think he'd do a good job if we had options at prop.

Saddened! wrote:

All good points but not necessarily true.

Leeds have won the last three Super League titles and only have international prop forward in Jamie Peacock. Ali in the backrow has been a rock alongside him when it's mattered but I'd hardly class their other backs as exceptional players.

Whilst having a quality front undoubtedly makes it easier, it is by no means the be all and end all. Leeds have quality spread through their 17, their front row bar Peacock is probably their biggest weakness.

I slightly disagree, I rate Kylie Leuleui very highly, he's a big defender with solid go forward. Bailey, while lacking going forward is a big tackler and works extremely hard in defence while he's on. Burgess and before him Scruton are certainly above par for a 4th choice prop.
But you're right in the fact they have a very big back row, Ali always causes us problems, just wide of the ruck and JJB & Ablett (and Ellis before) are extremely tough contenders who support the front row admirably.

In terms of bringing players through, we did get Jammer, so we can produce props, however Thompson didn't make the grade and Emmitt doesn't look destined to, either. Frodsham is our great white hope, but injuries at this vital stage of his career are hindering his emergence. Its worth giving a prop a bit more time to come good because of the physical nature of the position, but he really has to pull something out the bag when he gets back playing this time.
I think Maurie will go on a bit longer than people think, albeit he may settle down into more of a workhorse than the rombustous impact player he is now. He started playing late in the day and looks in decent shape.

Re: josh perry linked to st helens, nathan brown rumoured to nrl : Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:04 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

All good points but not necessarily true.

Leeds have won the last three Super League titles and only have international prop forward in Jamie Peacock. Ali in the backrow has been a rock alongside him when it's mattered but I'd hardly class their other backs as exceptional players.

Whilst having a quality front undoubtedly makes it easier, it is by no means the be all and end all. Leeds have quality spread through their 17, their front row bar Peacock is probably their biggest weakness.

Who said anything about having four Legends vying for two spots? I certainly didn't. We can argue about the whether Ryan Bailey or KL or whomever is "World Class". But there's absolutely no disputing the fact that when called upon the Leeds lads do the business on the field. They are all extremely solid, technically competent, provide good go-forward and front up in defence.

Re: josh perry linked to st helens, nathan brown rumoured to nrl : Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:07 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Who said anything about having four Legends vying for two spots? I certainly didn't. We can argue about the whether Ryan Bailey or KL or whomever is "World Class". But there's absolutely no disputing the fact that when called upon the Leeds lads do the business on the field. They are all extremely solid, technically competent, provide good go-forward and front up in defence.

The props don't. They are work shy make very few metres and concede a lot of penalties. It's not the props that made Leeds champions, it's their superb backs, half backs and backrow, plus Jamie Peacock.

Re: josh perry linked to st helens, nathan brown rumoured to nrl : Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:35 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

The props don't. They are work shy make very few metres and concede a lot of penalties. It's not the props that made Leeds champions, it's their superb backs, half backs and backrow,

No team wins SL with a poor front row. No team will ever win SL with a poor front row. And there is more to being a good prop than the ability to knock off six defenders and offload the ball to a try-scorer.

plus Jamie Peacock.

Who is a prop.

Re: josh perry linked to st helens, nathan brown rumoured to nrl : Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:59 am  

Saddened! wrote:

The props don't. They are work shy make very few metres and concede a lot of penalties.

I watched last week's match back last night. How you cannot rate Kylie Leulei is a mystery to me. If we had him in the squad instead of hargreaves/fozzard we'd be in a very nice situation imo.