: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:55 pm  

mystic eddie wrote: And the substitutions of our best players with half an hour to go and not doing anything about it until it was too late had nothing at all to do with it then? He'd done it all year, and that tactic resulted in our most sustained challenge for top spot since 2003, despite an effective four point salary cap/MM deduction (six relative to Leeds). Wigan were always going to have their say in that game, and had Hape not gifted an intercept try at 30-24 with seven to go, he would most likely have been vindicated. You call it spin, I call it balance. You tell us though that..... 1. effort is not an issue. Not likely a major one - might have been problems with individuals last year but not so much that it was particularly remarkable compared to other clubs. 2. ditto fitness. Other clubs have caught us up on this, no doubt. 3. our players are of a decent quality. Decentish, relative to the competiton. Not going to win any trebles, but capable of challenging, as they did for most of 2007. 4. Mr McNamara is doing an excellent job. Now that is a great example of spin. No one has said McNamara has excelled, certainly not me. But he does not have to be excellent to be our best bet right now. This is why I think 'Give me Bennett or give me death' is a handy characterisation of your position. Why then are we such a poor side then? Face facts, McNamara plunders average players from middle to lower ranked sides (in general) because he is at best a mid table manager who will never be a success at a club with ambitions of winning silverware. How many times - TV, Andy Lynch, Semi, Sprogger, Steve Mac himself, Hendo, Mike Forshaw... do I need to go on, or does this point just not register with you? By accepting him as the man for the job the club are simply accepting that we are an average side at best. Perhaps if they admitted as such it would not be so bad. Link My argument is that McNamara is a dud coach. I need not look to "spin" anything. He is. Sam Burgess disagrees, and his opinion counts for more than yours or mine does. I trust we can agree on that.

mystic eddie wrote: And the substitutions of our best players with half an hour to go and not doing anything about it until it was too late had nothing at all to do with it then? He'd done it all year, and that tactic resulted in our most sustained challenge for top spot since 2003, despite an effective four point salary cap/MM deduction (six relative to Leeds). Wigan were always going to have their say in that game, and had Hape not gifted an intercept try at 30-24 with seven to go, he would most likely have been vindicated. You call it spin, I call it balance. You tell us though that..... 1. effort is not an issue. Not likely a major one - might have been problems with individuals last year but not so much that it was particularly remarkable compared to other clubs. 2. ditto fitness. Other clubs have caught us up on this, no doubt. 3. our players are of a decent quality. Decentish, relative to the competiton. Not going to win any trebles, but capable of challenging, as they did for most of 2007. 4. Mr McNamara is doing an excellent job. Now that is a great example of spin. No one has said McNamara has excelled, certainly not me. But he does not have to be excellent to be our best bet right now. This is why I think 'Give me Bennett or give me death' is a handy characterisation of your position. Why then are we such a poor side then? Face facts, McNamara plunders average players from middle to lower ranked sides (in general) because he is at best a mid table manager who will never be a success at a club with ambitions of winning silverware. How many times - TV, Andy Lynch, Semi, Sprogger, Steve Mac himself, Hendo, Mike Forshaw... do I need to go on, or does this point just not register with you? By accepting him as the man for the job the club are simply accepting that we are an average side at best. Perhaps if they admitted as such it would not be so bad. Link My argument is that McNamara is a dud coach. I need not look to "spin" anything. He is. Sam Burgess disagrees, and his opinion counts for more than yours or mine does. I trust we can agree on that.

: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:14 pm  

Looking at this page the thread ought to be re christened the "ME V AF Marathon Challenge ".

Looks like AF has just snatched it . . . . .so far

: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:23 pm  

Bullpower wrote: Looks like AF has just snatched it . . . . .so far Sounds like spin to me. Meanwhile, on another planet, someone who's been given a bit of time seems to be doing alright for himself. And I thought Ferguson was the exception that proved the rule...

Bullpower wrote: Looks like AF has just snatched it . . . . .so far Sounds like spin to me. Meanwhile, on another planet, someone who's been given a bit of time seems to be doing alright for himself. And I thought Ferguson was the exception that proved the rule...

: Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:37 pm  

af wrote:

How many times - TV, Andy Lynch, Semi, Sprogger, Steve Mac himself, Hendo, Mike Forshaw... do I need to go on, or does this point just not register with you?

If you are a decent coach you can identify good players from lower ranked sides...........

As for the O' Neill link? I am puzzled by that one TBH but, again, like your rather silly Ferguson comment from previous, O'Neill had been a success at a lower level (Wycombe) before moving upwards to Leicester where he did a great job, went to Celtic where he was a terrific success and then went to Villa WITH A PROVEN RECORD!!!! Does that point not register with you? McNamara has no track record whatsoever. Perhaps Mr O Neill's track record can convince people he is capable.

Again, more spin. And bad spin at that.

: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:07 pm  

af wrote:

Sam Burgess disagrees, and his opinion counts for more than yours or mine does. I trust we can agree on that.

If we have another season like last year Sam Burgess won't want to stop anyway.

: Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:27 am  

mystic eddie wrote: As for the O' Neill link? I am puzzled by that one TBH but, again, like your rather silly Ferguson comment from previous, O'Neill had been a success at a lower level (Wycombe) before moving upwards to Leicester where he did a great job, went to Celtic where he was a terrific success and then went to Villa WITH A PROVEN RECORD!!!! Does that point not register with you? McNamara has no track record whatsoever. Perhaps Mr O Neill's track record can convince people he is capable. Again, more spin. And bad spin at that. Track records didn't save Sam Allardyce at Newcastle, or Paul Ince at Blackburn. I find it interesting how the sides that stuck with their managers (Everton, Villa) seem to have the most success in breaking the big four, while the trigger-happy ones (Newcastle, Spurs) quickly find that not making the Champions League isn't rock bottom after all. In any case, it's an aside, not crucial to the whirlwind of spin that is my case. What is vital, and what you don't seem to consider, is that there may be more to being Bradford Bulls' first team coach than Bulls' first team results in any given season. When Brian Smith took over, results were pretty dire - unsurprising given his early signings (Andy Ireland, Tommy Hodgkinson, St John Ellis RIP, towards the end of his career). But he was laying groundwork. Given the paucity of the league at the time, it didn't take long for us to join the top table. Now Leeds particularly and the other clubs are more up to speed, it's most likely going to be a longer process but one worth sticking with I feel. What baffles me about you, Eddie, is your passion for getting rid of McNamara in the absence of any alternative. You ever heard of the Underpants Gnomes? Have your doubts about McNamara by all means, but I just don't understand how people can be excited by the idea of him leaving the club when your plan seems to go no further than Mac leaves --> ? --> Bulls become better Does it occur to you that him leaving might be counter-productive?

mystic eddie wrote: As for the O' Neill link? I am puzzled by that one TBH but, again, like your rather silly Ferguson comment from previous, O'Neill had been a success at a lower level (Wycombe) before moving upwards to Leicester where he did a great job, went to Celtic where he was a terrific success and then went to Villa WITH A PROVEN RECORD!!!! Does that point not register with you? McNamara has no track record whatsoever. Perhaps Mr O Neill's track record can convince people he is capable. Again, more spin. And bad spin at that. Track records didn't save Sam Allardyce at Newcastle, or Paul Ince at Blackburn. I find it interesting how the sides that stuck with their managers (Everton, Villa) seem to have the most success in breaking the big four, while the trigger-happy ones (Newcastle, Spurs) quickly find that not making the Champions League isn't rock bottom after all. In any case, it's an aside, not crucial to the whirlwind of spin that is my case. What is vital, and what you don't seem to consider, is that there may be more to being Bradford Bulls' first team coach than Bulls' first team results in any given season. When Brian Smith took over, results were pretty dire - unsurprising given his early signings (Andy Ireland, Tommy Hodgkinson, St John Ellis RIP, towards the end of his career). But he was laying groundwork. Given the paucity of the league at the time, it didn't take long for us to join the top table. Now Leeds particularly and the other clubs are more up to speed, it's most likely going to be a longer process but one worth sticking with I feel. What baffles me about you, Eddie, is your passion for getting rid of McNamara in the absence of any alternative. You ever heard of the Underpants Gnomes? Have your doubts about McNamara by all means, but I just don't understand how people can be excited by the idea of him leaving the club when your plan seems to go no further than Mac leaves --> ? --> Bulls become better Does it occur to you that him leaving might be counter-productive?

: Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:00 am  

af wrote:

Track records

af wrote:

Paul Ince

: Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:56 am  

af wrote:

snip

Only time would tell whether getting rid of McNamara would be counter-productive or not but that point is merely speculation.

In fairness, behind the scenes he may well be doing a good job but his record as coach is poor and it seems he has no idea how to change this. Coaches are judged on their record in the wins/draws/losses column and his is not very good whatsoever. His inability to accept defeat without looking for someone to blame/any excuse is embarrassing also. (Blimey, even YOU keep mentioning the MM result against Leeds in 2007 for goodness sake. You really should move on.)

So again I stress my point that he has been a poor appointment as a coach and I fail to see that he has anything in his make up whatsoever that will suggest he has the ability to turn things round. Indeed, I think the fact that he is a bit of a club playing legend is leading some people to be blinkered about his managerial inabilities.

He was a cheap option who was well marketed in order to suggest that we were getting some kind of Rugby League wizard who had all the answers and, depending on who you listen to, was actually the brains behind our successes under Brian Noble.

If his role within the club is much more than just the first team coach I would suggest that he should be concentrating solely on first team matters and let other people do the background work in which he is apparently so good at. Either that, or let him do the background work and bring in someone to coach the side.

Results will surely dictate this season whether he is off or not but the time for excuses is over. Iestyn is no longer an issue (and, my God, have plenty of people on here blamed HIM for everything) and his team is his own now. It will be interesting to see how he gets on.

However, despite occasional points made by yourself that some people "want to win 40-0 each week" (a point that has NEVER been made by anyone on here as far as I am aware), I must point out that that is not what I am after. I merely seek a decent competitive Bulls side who can show that they are capable of performing against the better sides in the competition and for the coach to maybe hold his hands up now and again for his failings rather than thinking that everyone is out to get him.

You make your own luck in this world, just as you you are judged on performances. McNamara does not cut the mustard in regards to results. But, then again, he is a mid table manager at best so maybe he IS overachieving.

: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:07 am  

...........................................

: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:28 am  

mystic eddie wrote:

Only time would tell whether getting rid of McNamara would be counter-productive or not but that point is merely speculation.

So we should act on 'speculation'? Seriously confused here, are you saying because there is doubt we should take the nuclear option of sacking McNamara and hope for the best. I would have thought benefit of the doubt should go to the incumbent.

mystic eddie wrote:

In fairness, behind the scenes he may well be doing a good job

OK.

mystic eddie wrote:

...but his record as coach is poor

Poor compared to who or what? I've demonstrated earlier that it's quite similar to that of Brian Noble at Wigan. It's certainly not markedly worse than his.

mystic eddie wrote:

...and it seems he has no idea how to change this.

Based on what?

mystic eddie wrote:

Coaches are judged on their record in the wins/draws/losses column

By fans. I'd hope for a little more sophisticated level of analysis from the board.

mystic eddie wrote:

His inability to accept defeat without looking for someone to blame/any excuse is embarrassing also. (Blimey, even YOU keep mentioning the MM result against Leeds in 2007 for goodness sake. You really should move on.)

It's highly relevant to a discussion of that season. We were effectively six points deducted against Leeds. Had we not been, it's likely we would have finished above them, something Nobby didn't manage in either of his last two seasons at the club.

Either way, I think you're starting to show your booty here a bit. If moaning about refs in the media is a central plank in your argument for sacking a coach, you've got your priorities pretty askew. While it may be embarrassing, it's far to trivial to be factored into a serious discussion of someone's position as head coach.

mystic eddie wrote:

So again I stress my point that he has been a poor appointment as a coach and I fail to see that he has anything in his make up whatsoever that will suggest he has the ability to turn things round. Indeed, I think the fact that he is a bit of a club playing legend is leading some people to be blinkered about his managerial inabilities.

He was no legend. He was a decent player who most people thought was past his best when he left.

mystic eddie wrote:

He was a cheap option who was well marketed in order to suggest that we were getting some kind of Rugby League wizard who had all the answers and, depending on who you listen to, was actually the brains behind our successes under Brian Noble.

Again, the demand that we do a Ratner. Who else was available? Why would they be a better option? If he was such a cheap option, why did Hull FC try to nick him weeks earlier?

mystic eddie wrote:

If his role within the club is much more than just the first team coach I would suggest that he should be concentrating solely on first team matters and let other people do the background work in which he is apparently so good at. Either that, or let him do the background work and bring in someone to coach the side.

Interesting issue you raise. But whoever you bring in is going to cost money the club doesn't appear to have, and surely the idea is that the head coach is intimately involved with youth development. As I understand it, we got Donaldson because Steve Mac showed personal interest him, whilst he never even met Tony Smith when he went to Leeds.

mystic eddie wrote:

Results will surely dictate this season whether he is off or not but the time for excuses is over. Iestyn is no longer an issue (and, my God, have plenty of people on here blamed HIM for everything) and his team is his own now. It will be interesting to see how he gets on.

Yup, 2009's a big year. But where's the bar set? Do you concede that it is possible that even if we don't make a final this season it may still be counter-productive to sack McNamara, given the youngsters he has brought on that are approaching first team contention?

mystic eddie wrote:

However, despite occasional points made by yourself that some people "want to win 40-0 each week" (a point that has NEVER been made by anyone on here as far as I am aware)

I've run/been a mod on this board since 2000, and a poster on various Bulls boards since 1999 - people complain any time Bulls do any less than demolish the opposition/beat Leeds or Saints. They might not demand 40-nils, but they clearly have a very low tolerance of anything less than wins and trophies.

mystic eddie wrote:

I must point out that that is not what I am after. I merely seek a decent competitive Bulls side who can show that they are capable of performing against the better sides in the competition

Like we had in 2007, right?

what mystic eddie should have wrote:

Now I have to concede, you really nailed me with the underpant gnome bit. In many ways, I am an underpant gnome.

Yup.