Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:45 am  

We've got a good side, a top 3 side definitely and we'll run both Wigan and Warrington close when our forwards dominate like that and I imagine we will have a say in the Play Offs. Yesterday proved that we have the best forwards in the league when they put their mind to it and add in a match fit Clough and a fully fit Perry and we'll be fine next season. We may need a prop to cover the big loss of Graham, but we're not far off up front and I think we'll cope OK with what we've got if nothing changes. I don't think we need to panic too much, we don't need to make a mass amount of changes IMO and we should be proud of this team. It may not be our greatest Saints team, but there's definitely a good spirit there and they will more often than not give you everything.

The problem comes in the backs for me, especially at full back. Sam Tomkins was the big difference between the teams. The way he links into the line in attack, the way he uses his speed and evasion to return the ball and attack the line is sensational and his positioning and defence is massively under-rated. Compare that output to Wellens and it's a world apart. He returns the ball so slowly especially when he has to turn and whilst at times he can link in nicely with the backs (when it involves drawing one man and passing) he doesn't chime into the line at pace and he no longer seems to score in the big games himself like he once did. Full back is such a crucial position and you can't carry someone in that position purely because they've been a Saints legend. I love Wellens, he's been fantastic for us, but he can't keep playing there especially when we have players like Eastmond (fair enough he's leaving), Makinson, Hohaia, Lomax and Wheeler who can all play in the halves, at full back or both and all of them have pace and evasion skills. I actually think Makinson could make a really good full back for us. He has size, he's really quick, he has good footwork and caused Wigan problems with his returns yesterday. He's also a good one on one defender and seems OK under kicks too with his experience on the wing. On his returns he was far better than both Wellens and Foster, although at least Foster does return the ball at pace, he just doesn't break tackles. It'd be interesting to see how Makinson would do chiming into the line and creating plays as 3rd pivot. He's played Centre in the reserves before, so he no doubt has decent hands. Whether he'll be given that chance when Gardner returns (who has earned a new contract) remains to be seen.

I'm also not convinced Shenton has been anywhere near good enough both with the ball and in defence. He's been a big disappointment for me and it's no surprise we go down Meli's side because we know we'll get results down there like we did twice yesterday. The problem is we become predictable with that tactic and unbalanced and Wigan overloaded that side defensively because we went there all day long and knew they didn't have to concern themselves defensively on the other side as much. I bet Carmont barely made a tackle. Maybe he needs more decent ball and he definitely needs an attacking 2nd rower like Soliola inside him who attracts 2 or 3 defenders, because he seems to be a Centre that needs space to use his pace, rather than being an off the cuff creative player who can create for himself like some of our previous Centres. Maybe we've been spoilt down the years and I'm over reacting, but I definitely we feel we lack edge on our right hand side offensively and defensively.

The halves issue has been mentioned by a few but in Pryce, Lomax, Wheeler, Hohaia and Gaskell we have plenty of options and those are strong options to have especially when Wilkin has a good kicking game too. I'd definitely keep Pryce. He has been slagged off by a few for yesterday's performance, but it's his 3rd game game back and he's still not running at 100%. But he makes a big difference to our side. He attracts defenders, shows the ball and can break tackles. He'll get better as the season goes on and should he stay fit we have to keep him. Put Lomax or Hohaia alongside him and we have a good combination with the likes of Wheeler and Gaskell in reserve.

The only other issue for me is defensively I think we're still a bit naive and this may well be a coaching issue. We dominated the game in possession and territorily but when Wigan were on our line I was never really comfortable, especially when they attacked our right side defence. I suppose this comes back to Shenton and his inside men (half back and back rower) but all season sides have had alot of joy down that side and we don't seem to shift quickly enough to cover. We also don't put the attacker on their back or look to dominate in the tackle, which gives you an extra second or two to set the defensive line. Whilst we only conceded 18 points yesterday and looked pretty strong in general, particularly up the middle, I still think it's an area we can improve.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:54 am  

Blobbynator wrote:

We've got a good side, a top 3 side definitely and we'll run both Wigan and Warrington close when our forwards dominate like that and I imagine we will have a say in the Play Offs. Yesterday proved that we have the best forwards in the league when they put their mind to it and add in a match fit Clough and a fully fit Perry and we'll be fine next season. We may need a prop to cover the big loss of Graham, but we're not far off up front and I think we'll cope OK with what we've got if nothing changes. I don't think we need to panic too much, we don't need to make a mass amount of changes IMO and we should be proud of this team. It may not be our greatest Saints team, but there's definitely a good spirit there and they will more often than not give you everything.

The problem comes in the backs for me, especially at full back. Sam Tomkins was the big difference between the teams. The way he links into the line in attack, the way he uses his speed and evasion to return the ball and attack the line is sensational and his positioning and defence is massively under-rated. Compare that output to Wellens and it's a world apart. He returns the ball so slowly especially when he has to turn and whilst at times he can link in nicely with the backs (when it involves drawing one man and passing) he doesn't chime into the line at pace and he no longer seems to score in the big games himself like he once did. Full back is such a crucial position and you can't carry someone in that position purely because they've been a Saints legend. I love Wellens, he's been fantastic for us, but he can't keep playing there especially when we have players like Eastmond (fair enough he's leaving), Makinson, Hohaia, Lomax and Wheeler who can all play in the halves, at full back or both and all of them have pace and evasion skills. I actually think Makinson could make a really good full back for us. He has size, he's really quick, he has good footwork and caused Wigan problems with his returns yesterday. He's also a good one on one defender and seems OK under kicks too with his experience on the wing. On his returns he was far better than both Wellens and Foster, although at least Foster does return the ball at pace, he just doesn't break tackles. It'd be interesting to see how Makinson would do chiming into the line and creating plays as 3rd pivot. He's played Centre in the reserves before, so he no doubt has decent hands. Whether he'll be given that chance when Gardner returns (who has earned a new contract) remains to be seen.

I'm also not convinced Shenton has been anywhere near good enough both with the ball and in defence. He's been a big disappointment for me and it's no surprise we go down Meli's side because we know we'll get results down there like we did twice yesterday. The problem is we become predictable with that tactic and unbalanced and Wigan overloaded that side defensively because we went there all day long and knew they didn't have to concern themselves defensively on the other side as much. I bet Carmont barely made a tackle. Maybe he needs more decent ball and he definitely needs an attacking 2nd rower like Soliola inside him who attracts 2 or 3 defenders, because he seems to be a Centre that needs space to use his pace, rather than being an off the cuff creative player who can create for himself like some of our previous Centres. Maybe we've been spoilt down the years and I'm over reacting, but I definitely we feel we lack edge on our right hand side offensively and defensively.

The halves issue has been mentioned by a few but in Pryce, Lomax, Wheeler, Hohaia and Gaskell we have plenty of options and those are strong options to have especially when Wilkin has a good kicking game too. I'd definitely keep Pryce. He has been slagged off by a few for yesterday's performance, but it's his 3rd game game back and he's still not running at 100%. But he makes a big difference to our side. He attracts defenders, shows the ball and can break tackles. He'll get better as the season goes on and should he stay fit we have to keep him. Put Lomax or Hohaia alongside him and we have a good combination with the likes of Wheeler and Gaskell in reserve.

The only other issue for me is defensively I think we're still a bit naive and this may well be a coaching issue. We dominated the game in possession and territorily but when Wigan were on our line I was never really comfortable, especially when they attacked our right side defence. I suppose this comes back to Shenton and his inside men (half back and back rower) but all season sides have had alot of joy down that side and we don't seem to shift quickly enough to cover. We also don't put the attacker on their back or look to dominate in the tackle, which gives you an extra second or two to set the defensive line. Whilst we only conceded 18 points yesterday and looked pretty strong in general, particularly up the middle, I still think it's an area we can improve.

You think your forward dominated ours? Really?.

I agree with Wellens and if Hohaia has been signed to be fullback, you will be far more dynamic next year. I also agree with Shenton he has no where near score enough tries (I have him in my fantasy rugby team )

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:59 am  

Pieman wrote:

You think your forward dominated ours? Really?

Yes, especially in the 1st half. We certainly had the better of the territory.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:02 am  

Pieman wrote:

You think your forward dominated ours? Really?.

I agree with Wellens and if Hohaia has been signed to be fullback, you will be far more dynamic next year. I also agree with Shenton he has no where near score enough tries (I have him in my fantasy rugby team )

I wouldn't say our forward dominated yours as such but we more than matched yours and IMO we have the best pack in super league.

I've been saying the exact same as blobby, we just dint have enough attack in our backs. People keep saying wello is the main problem and I'd agree but it's not only him, Jamie fosters kick returns are not much better abaci can't think of the last time foster beat a man.

We are not that far off Wigan and Warrington but need to find some good attacking backs.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:03 am  

St pete wrote:

I wouldn't say our forward dominated yours as such but we more than matched yours and IMO we have the best pack in super league.

I've been saying the exact same as blobby, we just dint have enough attack in our backs. People keep saying wello is the main problem and I'd agree but it's not only him, Jamie fosters kick returns are not much better abaci can't think of the last time foster beat a man.

We are not that far off Wigan and Warrington but need to find some good attacking backs.

Foster does return the ball with a bit of pace though and he more than makes up for it with his finishing ability and goal kicking. He's also durable and pretty reliable in defence.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:08 am  

Blobbynator wrote:

Yes, especially in the 1st half. We certainly had the better of the territory.

that was down to penalties and handling errors. Our forwards were awesome in defense in the first 30 mins and we had no possession, defensively hammering your pack and doing the hard work when called upon.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:09 am  

Blobbynator wrote:

Foster does return the ball with a bit of pace though and he more than makes up for it with his finishing ability and goal kicking. He's also durable and pretty reliable in defence.

d

Do you ever expect him to beat a man on his kick returns?

I'm a stand off and im our kicker, I'd kick deep either to wello or foster because they offer no threat with the ball. I wouldn't even be to disappointed if the kick went straight down eithers throat.

Foster does have time on his side and might break line more as he fills out.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:15 am  

Pieman wrote:

that was down to penalties and handling errors. Our forwards were awesome in defense in the first 30 mins and we had no possession, defensively hammering your pack and doing the hard work when called upon.

But we still dominated you in the first half. We just couldn't turn that into points.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:21 am  

Pieman wrote:

that was down to penalties and handling errors. Our forwards were awesome in defense in the first 30 mins and we had no possession, defensively hammering your pack and doing the hard work when called upon.

I thought we were in a better position to kick in the 1st half than you were. Alot of our kicks found space, whereas alot of yours were caught on the full because you were kicking from deep and we were hitting the half way line with ease at times. To not take advantage of our dominance cost us the game in the end.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:25 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

But we still dominated you in the first half. We just couldn't turn that into points.

The big question tho my loved one, why couldn't we turn it in to points?

Wigan tackled well but even the best defence in the works crumbles with that much defending on their on line and that much pressure.