Re: Reality check : Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:36 am  

St pete wrote:

He's a better winger than tommy with the ball at this current time. Tommy looked way out his depth against Souths with the ball.

Tommy is much more reliable, less error prone and a sublime finisher in a yard of space. 3 years ago he wasn't. Tommy struggled against Souths because we couldn't find him an inch of space, let alone a yard. He is still far to lightweight for carrying the ball up, but again, there's really no team in SL that make his cons outweigh his pros.

Re: Reality check : Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:02 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

There are a couple of things SL sides can do much better that don't need better athletes etc. One is cut down the errors. It really makes me cringe at times watching SL sides or the national team against the Aussies, because the error rate is dreadful. The stats might not show it, but its the unforced errors that are the biggest problem (particularly dropping the ball on contact) and the position on the field when it happens. Its not by accident that time and again our teams cough the ball up close to our own line but the Aussies don't. its because its punished ruthlessly in the NRL, and simply isn't in SL. But even with that, all clubs and players could do better with hard work.

Another is the kicking game. A full time pro halfback ought to be able to do far better than aimlessly kick the ball into the full backs arms every time, or make aimless attacking kicks (also requires the outside backs to train more as well but you get my point). Do SL halfbacks not train at this?

It should be remembered that Souths revamped their entire threequarter line last year. In 2013 they had a big pack, Greg Inglis and Reynolds' kicking game. Last year most of the 2-5 was new - big, strong and (Tuqiri apart) quick). Because when it came to the crunch in 2013 they simply didn't have enough points in them (and in fact the Dogs team they faced in the final had exactly the same problem out wide). As has been said, the chances are they'll lose more players over the next couple of years as the young backs demand pay rises. But they were no more dominant last year than the Roosters the year before.

I'd also add that if anything people here claim that the NRL is more robotic than ever. What you see with Souths cutting loose is that the robotic play actually enables the off the cuff play to be more effective, as the supposedly "robotic" players have the ability to time and make passes under pressure more reliably than otherwise.

Really good post.

I found it interesting to see Reynolds out on the pitch long before both teams came out, practising his kicking short and long. It's the sort of work ethic embodied by Cooper Cronk as well, and goes to explain why we lag behind in that department.

If you are a full time pro surely practising your game is just as, if not more, important than spending hours in the gym. The kicking of the Super League teams at the week end was woeful in comparison with the NRL teams. Marshall gave a master class against Wire for further example.

Re: Reality check : Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:11 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Really good post.

I found it interesting to see Reynolds out on the pitch long before both teams came out, practising his kicking short and long. It's the sort of work ethic embodied by Cooper Cronk as well, and goes to explain why we lag behind in that department.

If you are a full time pro surely practising your game is just as, if not more, important than spending hours in the gym. The kicking of the Super League teams at the week end was woeful in comparison with the NRL teams. Marshall gave a master class against Wire for further example.

I worry about how much ball work Wigan did in pre season. I read a comment somewhere saying it was weeks in to pre season before they got out on the field with a ball. That's crazy IMO! Yes they need to be fit but there has to be a balance.

At times this season we've played like we've never seen a ball!

Re: Reality check : Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:54 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I worry about how much ball work Wigan did in pre season. I read a comment somewhere saying it was weeks in to pre season before they got out on the field with a ball. That's crazy IMO! Yes they need to be fit but there has to be a balance.

At times this season we've played like we've never seen a ball!

That's not that surprising, to be honest. The first few weeks are just about getting everyone fit and strong; pre-season is pretty much the only time of the year it's possible for players to gain size/strength (in season at best they'll just maintain), so it needs to be emphasised. It's the same in Australia from what I've read, and it's no coincidence that with them having a longer pre-season they are much fitter and stronger than us.

Re: Reality check : Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:51 pm  

No reality check for me. It was a glorified friendly - let's not kid ourselves - against easily the best team in world rugby. Coupled with the fact that we didn't even play badly, and I am not worried in the slightest. I still think we are the team to beat in SL, and I am happy we came through what was a bruising match with no serious injuries.

People getting worked up over it, have a word with yourselves.

If anything, the game will have done the kids a world of good. They won't come up against monsters like that many times in their careers, and to see how good they are can only help our kids in the long run. Percival did his standing no harm, as did Walmsley. In fact, I can see both now being targeted by NRL sides. Luckily for us, Turner had a poor game...

Re: Reality check : Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:36 pm  

I've disputed this robotic tag for years. It was the same at Wigan under Maguire.

When it's done with precision and pace it's fantastic to watch and difficult to defend against.

I was at the Wigan and Souths training session last week and it was good to watch the effort put into getting those "robotic" plays to work. Maguires teams have a great work ethic and it'll only be a matter of time before he gets the NSW and Australia jobs.

Re: Reality check : Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:09 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Bateman made 160 metres and 60 tackles in the game

Faz around 150 metres and 40+ tackles

Clubb 128 metres and 28 tackles

Joel Tomkins made only 80 metres in comparison.

We made too many errors but our go forward was fine apart from a couple of the props.

Your "go forward" is a function of your handling - not your forward power. It was exactly the same in the Grand Final. You made plenty of yards - but very few through the channel 10m either side of the centre spot.

Guys like Farrell and Bateman are very adept at scything through gaps on the edge of the defence. But when the opposition pattern is sound and it comes down purely to brute force traction (such as clearing your own line in heavy conditions against physical packs) neither is going anywhere.

This is why I don't see Farrell as a genuine GB second row. There are no holes in the Australian edge defence. And he's not big enough to worry them through the middle.

It's precisely the same problem we had when Millward decided he didn't need big props, opting instead to go for mobility.

Re: Reality check : Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:12 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

Tommy has been given 3 years to develop an edge to his game. Don't get me wrong, Tommy M has grabbed the opportunity with both hands and is one of the top 5 wingers in the country now, and certainly the best finisher, but I think people forget he spent years being drip fed into the team as he developed, I think it would be foolish to not grant the same to Swift. His defence has already improved beyond recognition from this time last year, and I think he'll really benefit from being outside Turner this year.

He's prone to a silly mistake once a game at the moment which he needs to work on cutting out. But I wouldn't want us wasting cap space to replace him just yet.

To be honest, I don't think Swift will play three consecutive years on the wing. Either he'll move inside or he'll leave.

Re: Reality check : Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:25 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Really good post.

I found it interesting to see Reynolds out on the pitch long before both teams came out, practising his kicking short and long. It's the sort of work ethic embodied by Cooper Cronk as well, and goes to explain why we lag behind in that department.

If you are a full time pro surely practising your game is just as, if not more, important than spending hours in the gym. The kicking of the Super League teams at the week end was woeful in comparison with the NRL teams. Marshall gave a master class against Wire for further example.

Playing devil's advocate - why should players spend a greater proportion of time practicing kicking when yards are so easy to come by SL?

A side challenging for the title might only play six or eight games a season in which territory is absolutely crucial. Most of the time they can rely on their opponents to hand them the very same opportunities a good kicking game will produce.

Re: Reality check : Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:28 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Your "go forward" is a function of your handling - not your forward power. It was exactly the same in the Grand Final. You made plenty of yards - but very few through the channel 10m either side of the centre spot.

Guys like Farrell and Bateman are very adept at scything through gaps on the edge of the defence. But when the opposition pattern is sound and it comes down purely to brute force traction (such as clearing your own line in heavy conditions against physical packs) neither is going anywhere.

This is why I don't see Farrell as a genuine GB second row. There are no holes in the Australian edge defence. And he's not big enough to worry them through the centre.

It's precisely the same problem we had when Millward decided he didn't need big props, opting instead to go for mobility.

But you said Bateman's quick feet got him nowhere and Farrell got neutralised which those stats would suggest is untrue. They made roughly 300 metres worth of forward ground between them regardless of running in a straight line or hitting holes on the edge to gain ground.

Both had top games and both are two of the best backrowers in superleague. Good enough for international level? I think so but even if not they're just about the best we have so we don't have much choice.