Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:20 pm  

To be fair there is no way we can know what Long is capable of. But the romance is tempting.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:07 am  

Long making a comeback is a nice idea, but it's worth remembering that he wasn't so good in his last couple of seasons for us, and that was a few years ago now.

Regarding Brown, I don't think what we're seeing is his fault. As I've said elsewhere, two panic buys made to replace Eastmond and Graham, combined with whatever has gone on with Gaskell, have left us in a really tricky situation where we can all see the problem (and I'm sure McManus can too) but we can't really do anything about it until our overseas players come out of contract. It's a situation that has come about because of poor decisions made 2-3 years ago, and the depressing likelihood is that it won't/can't be addressed until next season.

Having said that, I do think that Brown should pick a half-back pairing and stick with it; whatever combination he picks in the meantime is going to be unsatisfactory, so he may as well go for continuity. At the moment it feels a bit like he's rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. I also think it's a little odd that he's using LMS as a starting prop. Clough is much better suited to that role, with Louie coming of the bench. These are side-effects of a quality that I quite like about Brown, though - he's not afraid to try something different, which is refreshing after the last couple of years.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:02 am  

Signing Sean Long isn't the way. As Dux says, he was a shadow of his former self in his last days at saints and had a reasonably unimpressive stint at Hull after that.

Brown has a lot of problems that aren't his fault, such as the lack of halfbacks and proper forwards and injuries, but he does some strange things to try and make up for it. I can only assume that he sees the first half of the season as irrelevant and a time to experiment.

I think we need to get a scrum half, ASAP. Someone said don't panic, that's how we ended up with Hohaia and I agree. So we should look to a loan move for the rest of the season.
Dux mentioned a top experienced Championship 7 like Finn, which is one idea, or we can try and get a NRL youngster (like when dobson originally came over), deregistering Perry if needed.

We have a decent number of players who could be part of a successfull team. Some of whom would be starts at the highest level and some of whom who are good enough to play their part. The problem with the squad is the areas we are lacking are not only some of the most important aspects, but we're not just a little short of quality in them, we've got a gaping casm.

We have Lomax, Roby and Soliola who are stars imo. We also have TP who, whilst a little lethargic, can do some sensational things against big teams.

We have potential Stars in Manu, Walmsley and Percival.

We have some good solid players in Clough, Flanaghan, Turner, Makinson

We have some very interesting youngsters in Greenwood, Jones and Walker.

We have Pope Francis, who can give much, but can also take it way.

The above should mean we can, with some work in vital areas, get back to being a top 4 club and a genuine contender. We do need to work on the rest.

The rest are shirts fillers, and some not very good ones. Given the way he was defending on Saturday, I think Lance must be trying to win and award for most dissapointing signing EVER.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:11 am  

Offside Monkey wrote:

Given the way he was defending on Saturday, I think Lance must be trying to win and award for most dissapointing signing EVER.

That defensive performance was unreal. Leon Felton-esque.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:44 am  

As a fan you are normally positive when a new coach takes the reigns...but I just couldn't get excited when we announced that Brown was taking over the reigns. He did take Huddersfield to the next level although I feel he did that not with instilling an expansive style of rugby, but by making them a nightmare to play against. I felt under him they slowed the ptb down, were over the top aggressive and too restrictive despite some of the talent they had/have. I'm already noticing these traits at Saints.

When Rush & Cunningham took over, it sounds silly but I was filled with optimism. There was a sense that we were going to shake of the shackles and play a style of rugby that you associate with St.Helens. Rush even referenced the clubs philosophy to being similar to football teams like Barcelona. I believe that if we'd had a natural scrum half last season we'd have gone all the way.

Now Brown comes in and tells us to forget about the past. Forget about that brand of rugby we used to play because we no longer have the players to pull that off. Really? I've been following Saints since the 80's and we've had some ropey lineups but we always stuck to that philosophy of playing expansive,exciting rugby. Even when we couldn't compete with the great Wigan sides we were always an handful for them and we earned the tag of being entertainers.

Undoubtably, Brown's been dealt a crap hand (Like Beadle) but I'm not having it that them lads can't play rugby league without the shackles off. Him and McManus will keep telling us that and soon the players will start believing they can't either.

I'll keep supporting them no matter what, and I hope Brown proves me wrong....but him managing a team like Saints is like Pulis managing a team like Man Utd, because he too is another manager that has convinced the players and fans of a club that they can only have success if they play this restrictive, unimaginative, bland way.

Like I said though, I hope he proves me wrong.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:43 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

To be fair there is no way we can know what Long is capable of. But the romance is tempting.

I look at it like this , how could he possibly make our halfback situation worse?

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:46 pm  

No1 Saint wrote:

I look at it like this , how could he possibly make our halfback situation worse?

I think the same. We're in a mess at 6 and 7 and whilst it's a very desperate move, we're very desperate for a 6 and 7.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:19 pm  

This has been a very interesting thread up to now with some insightful comments and observations. I would like to add my own to these FWIW

Brown is certainly at fault for some of the teams failings (selections) but there is so much more to our problems that a new coach was on a hiding to nothing.

Half back Situation
We obviously need a 7 and less desperately a 6 but cast your mind back only 2 years ago. We had a halfback combination of Eastmond (the current No 7 for England) and Leon Pryce to come back from injury. We had a 7 to build a team around, an experienced 6 for 2 or 3 more seasons to help guide and some good young talent at half coming through. Almost overnight it seems that we had to then rely on Lomax and Gaskell to see us through that season - the majority were over the moon with the performance of 2 local boys (I never saw it with Gaskell but was willing to accept that they seemed to work together). We made the grand final with our marquee players such as Graham, Roby, Puletua and Soliola as stand outs and only injuries prevented us from winning on that day.

Last Season
Things started to look rosy, we had lost Graham but signed an Australian of some reputation and Perry (our international prop) ready to come back after an injury ravaged season, we had signed a Kiwi international to work in the halves and also added utility value (personally I have never rated Hohaia and thought he was probably the luckiest player to pull on an international jersey after Andy Currier) but then things started to go wrong very quickly. It was very apparent that the players we had to replace Graham couldnt come close and the loss of Graham was now deaply felt, Roby was starting to work alone as the dummy half, the half backs were now no longer working together and the super kiwi had to be played even though there wasnt really a place he could fit into the team. We sacked the manager who the year before had been a saviour (probably because he knew that Brown was signed for the next year) - slipped down the table and we had to use internal coaches for the rest of the year and to be fair to them they did what was needed to get us through that season, but with no eye on what was the long term.

Fullback and current halfbacks
Last season Wello showed that he still had the ability to cut it at the highest level even though he still had some issues with speed - but this year he has gone further back and when we see a player like Lomax show what we could have had it has only added to our woes. So our one decent half back now has to play full back - so we are left with
One half back who is a tackling second row
One half back who is an ex full back
One half back who is a Kiwi and doesnt show any flair for the position
One half back who seems to be made from chalk
One half back who has been moved to another club as he just isnt good enough
and a bunch of kids who are not yet ready but it seems that they will have to be played.

But 2 years ago we were very strong in that area?????? The loss of Eastmond caused all of this dilema but it was further compounded by Lomax and Gaskell looking good for 1/2 a season making the club and the supporters feel that they had good half backs when it turns out we only had a great fullback and a Salford player - we signed a half back who simply shouldnt be anywhere except on the last plane home.
But to add to this we have lost all of our go foward through poor props and an injured hooker (so we now have our 2 outstanding players injured) and no replacement.
We have more than our fair share of players who shouldnt be getting regular first team places - but they are and need to be whittled down to subs or first choice replacements

What has to be done
We are in a right mess and very little options but to rebuild around the players we still have. Should these have been seen earlier - probably but not by a coach you were going to replace and not by an interim coach.
So it is a case of fate, mismanagement and poor purchasing that has got us here. It will have to be Brown who gets us out and it will take seasons and brave choices to do it.

What we need to do
Some people on here are talking about packing in, not getting a season ticket and generally deriding the team. Yes we are not good at this time - but we will rise again - Wigan had this scenario a couple of years back - what did they do? they rallied round the team, supported in even greater numbers and have been enjoying it ever since. There is nothing like poor seasons to make you appreciate good ones - I think that we have all been a bit spoilt, but the answer now is to get behind the team and show them that we understand what is happening and we trust them to get it right - dont tell me that you need a bunch of pie eaters to show you what is the right thing to do

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:20 pm  

Blobbynator wrote:

I think the same. We're in a mess at 6 and 7 and whilst it's a very desperate move, we're very desperate for a 6 and 7.

Lets get scully at 6 and longy at 7.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:36 pm  

St pete wrote:

Lets get scully at 6 and longy at 7.