Re: Spent force : Wed May 16, 2012 7:46 pm  

BackrowSaint wrote:

Absolutely. But surely you can't argue that good players don't create their own opportunities when nothing is on?

Centres live and die by their supply - they stand well away from the majority of the play and rely on the ball coming down the line to them - they can't generate something from nothing - if they get no ball then they can do nothing. I can't believe that this fundamental aspect of the game needs to be explained to some supposed Saints fans, but clearly it does....

Stick Mal Meninga or Paul Newlove in that #3 shirt for the last 18 months and the kneejerk numpty brigade would be calling him an underperforming waste of money and rejoicing in rumours of him being shipped off to any other club we could find right now instead.

Re: Spent force : Wed May 16, 2012 7:49 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Centres live and die by their supply - they stand well away from the majority of the play and rely on the ball coming down the line to them - they can't generate something from nothing - if they get no ball then they can do nothing. I can't believe that this fundamental aspect of the game needs to be explained to some supposed Saints fans, but clearly it does....

Stick Mal Meninga or Paul Newlove in that #3 shirt for the last 18 months and the kneejerk numpty brigade would be calling him an underperforming waste of money and rejoicing in rumours of him being shipped off to any other club we could find right now instead.

Don't be so patronising when your counter argument is absolute rubbish. See my previous post, he gets enough ball to do something with. He's done nothing so far.

Re: Spent force : Wed May 16, 2012 8:10 pm  

BackrowSaint wrote:

I've just checked the stats and the ball is without a doubt distributed considerably more to our left flank than our right, about 2 to 1 in fact.

According to that marvel of all things statistical, Phil Clarke, after our Wakey game when, let's face it, we could do pretty much what we wanted, 40% of the ball went to the left, 10% to the right (and yes, the rest down the middle). That's an atrocious differential in a match when Shenton and Makinson could have made loads of hay had they actually been passed the ball. As it was, they just got frostbite.

However, Shenton has had 96 carries, 22 of which coming from dummy half leaving him with 74 carries which probably were in the centre channel.

But even if they were in the centre channel, whereabouts on the pitch were they? I have no idea whether 96 carries is good, bad or indifferent but I would assume when compared to right centres in other teams his carries will be relatively low given the percentage we actually pass that way.

I'm not a Shenton hater but I'm struggling to see what he brings to our side that Josh Jones for instance can't match and better from his few showings.

Josh Jones will have been well protected by the senior players around him. I remember Foster saying that about his team mates when he first started. Don't mistake a good start with an excellent centre. He will have been carried by the team, just as all our newbies have as and when they have been introduced.

Re: Spent force : Wed May 16, 2012 8:13 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Centres live and die by their supply - they stand well away from the majority of the play and rely on the ball coming down the line to them - they can't generate something from nothing - if they get no ball then they can do nothing. I can't believe that this fundamental aspect of the game needs to be explained to some supposed Saints fans, but clearly it does....

Stick Mal Meninga or Paul Newlove in that #3 shirt for the last 18 months and the kneejerk numpty brigade would be calling him an underperforming waste of money and rejoicing in rumours of him being shipped off to any other club we could find right now instead.

You don't think the extra class of Meninga would have won us the GF? I think you're wrong. I think if Shenton had stayed fit throughout the match we'd have won that GF, and he was struggling to do anything attack wise all year.

Re: Spent force : Wed May 16, 2012 8:16 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

Josh Jones will have been well protected by the senior players around him. I remember Foster saying that about his team mates when he first started. Don't mistake a good start with an excellent centre. He will have been carried by the team, just as all our newbies have as and when they have been introduced.

Maybe so, but the fact that the team have been more willing to pass to a rookie that needs protecting with 4 games under his belt than a highly paid international centre rings alarm bells.

Re: Spent force : Wed May 16, 2012 8:18 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

I think if Shenton had stayed fit throughout the match we'd have won that GF

I agree. But I think that was mainly because he was defensively sound. What we replaced him with was a disaster.

God that GF still breaks my heart. And I don't think we're going to get another shot at it in a while.

Re: Spent force : Wed May 16, 2012 8:20 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

Maybe so, but the fact that the team have been more willing to pass to a rookie that needs protecting with 4 games under his belt than a highly paid international centre rings alarm bells.

Nah. They were passing to Meli and Foster last year too. Our tendancy has been there since we lost our first choice halves. And maybe Robes too is a little too prone to passing to his left? Either way, we all identified it as a problem last season as well so IMO it has absolutely nothing to do with the presence of Jones.

Re: Spent force : Wed May 16, 2012 8:21 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

According to that marvel of all things statistical, Phil Clarke, after our Wakey game when, let's face it, we could do pretty much what we wanted, 40% of the ball went to the left, 10% to the right (and yes, the rest down the middle). That's an atrocious differential in a match when Shenton and Makinson could have made loads of hay had they actually been passed the ball. As it was, they just got frostbite.

Good point, I hadn't accounted for ball down the middle.

SaintsFan wrote:

But even if they were in the centre channel, whereabouts on the pitch were they? I have no idea whether 96 carries is good, bad or indifferent but I would assume when compared to right centres in other teams his carries will be relatively low given the percentage we actually pass that way.

96 carries is an okayish amount of carries, but it's the 74 that's more important as scoots from dummy half don't really count in the purpose of this debate. If you compare it with say, Darrell Goulding, he has 94 carries after excluding dummy half scoots. As you can see Goulding has more carries but it's not significantly more. I would have expected to see more from Shenton with the ball he has received, I'm not asking for Jamie Lyon standards, just a glimpse of what we thought we had signed.

SaintsFan wrote:

Josh Jones will have been well protected by the senior players around him. I remember Foster saying that about his team mates when he first started. Don't mistake a good start with an excellent centre. He will have been carried by the team, just as all our newbies have as and when they have been introduced.

This is very true also, however, with just under a half of the amount of carries he has 16 tackle busts to Shenton's 10. Youngster being carried or not, that shows to me Josh Jones is more likely to beat a man than Shenton is at this point.

Re: Spent force : Wed May 16, 2012 8:45 pm  

Josh Jones will have been well protected by the senior players around him. I remember Foster saying that about his team mates when he first started. Don't mistake a good start with an excellent centre. He will have been carried by the team, just as all our newbies have as and when they have been introduced.

Writes the font of all rubbish.

Using your analogy, the only reason Shenton showed any (if any) promise last season was because he was a newbie and was carried by his team mates.

Re: Spent force : Wed May 16, 2012 8:47 pm  

At the start of the season, Shenton was injured.

So at that point Wheeler was having to run the right channel.

Now I recall that Salford game and I also recall serveral good runs from Wheeler down that channel. Just because you get less service, does not mean you have no chance to create. I'm sorry but Shenton has shown less in all his games this year than Wheeler did in his 1 or 2 games in the same channel. I'm not even sure that Wheeler is the future at centre (I'd like him to be, but I'm not nailed on for that).

Shenton is defensively sound but unspecatular going forwards, I don't think he is poor going forwards because of the ball he does not get, it's because of the ball he does get and what he does not do with it.