Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again..... : Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:59 pm  

Ashy wrote:

This thread is full of utter $h!te spouted by saints fans that have no knowledge of rugby league.

Yes wellens is slow and his attack isn't brilliant. However, he has never been picked based on his attack. He pulled off an amazing tackle on a player that is 3 times faster than him. No one else in our team would do a better job at full back

Have to disagree. Admittedly wellens is a fantastic fullback and I have the upmost respect for him. However the role of fullback is changing and they are more like a third halfback now. Billy slater and Sam Tompkins are just 2 examples. Ratboy was superb in Attack and defennce as is slater. Wellens is lacking in attack but does support well.
I think lomax would adapt ala Tompkins to fullback and give us that extra dimension. With regards to wellens he could take the spot on the bench because I think he still has lots to offer the team but lomax or maybe makinson or Ashe should be given the chance to prove they are the future and wellens is the ideal mentor.

Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again..... : Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:04 pm  

Mr Miagi wrote:

Have to disagree. Admittedly wellens is a fantastic fullback and I have the upmost respect for him. However the role of fullback is changing and they are more like a third halfback now. Billy slater and Sam Tompkins are just 2 examples. Ratboy was superb in Attack and defennce as is slater. Wellens is lacking in attack but does support well.
I think lomax would adapt ala Tompkins to fullback and give us that extra dimension. With regards to wellens he could take the spot on the bench because I think he still has lots to offer the team but lomax or maybe makinson or Ashe should be given the chance to prove they are the future and wellens is the ideal mentor.

I agree that they should get a chance. There's a time and a place for that though and a cc semi final against Wigan one of those times.

Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again..... : Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:05 pm  

Ashy wrote:

I agree that they should get a chance. There's a time and a place for that though and a cc semi final against Wigan one of those times.

Wello has to be relieved of his position from the word go next season. Has to.

Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again..... : Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:09 pm  

I agree but once again (for various reasons) we have lost a big game to a major rival. We need to identify our weaknesses and improve on them. Why not try lomax at fullback Gaskell/ pryce in the halves between now and the playoffs. Another plus is that gives wello a break to refresh ( I think he needs and deserves one) and get rid of any niggling injuries.

Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again..... : Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:42 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote:

Lets look at our 3qtrs then

Shenton England international centre
Meli former NZ winger, and NRL winger of the year, and also current exiles winger.
Foster emerging England Winger
Makinson England academy captain.
Gardner England and GB international Wing

No pace or ability in that line up.

Got to agree with you Chairmeister; no real issues with the backs (well perhaps wello might be close to the end of his brilliant career.
The issue today was summed up by Simmons - we kept going out wide to our left instead of being a bit more direct or even going to the right occasionally. We were so predictable in that respect.
I'd be well peed off if I was shenton and makinson (who I thought were both v good defensively) but who never saw the ball..

Add to that Meli's missed tackle on their winger and then us letting bambi get over the line with 3 (or was it 4) players sort of half-grabbing him - shame on you LMS, Flanno and Wello, and its no wonder we lost.

However, back from the match I've just watched the recording and for a lot of the time we were much the better team but we didn't use our brains very much.
It is now apparent how unfit Leon still is which is perhaps only to be expected.
It was noticable however that because we decided to pivot ALL our attacking moves through Leon, his lack of positional play in only going down the left channel meant that ALL our play also only went down our left channel.
The Leon of old used to attack through both sides of the ruck area and sometimes down the centre of the ruck area like all good stand offs do.

Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again..... : Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:31 am  

[quote="Mr Miagi"]Have to disagree. Admittedly wellens is a fantastic fullback and I have the upmost respect for him. However the role of fullback is changing and they are more like a third halfback now. Billy slater and Sam Tompkins are just 2 examples. Ratboy was superb in Attack and defennce as is slater. Wellens is lacking in attack but does support well. ...quote]

Despite Tomkins being awarded MOM (for me in a tight game where no-one stood out), I don't think his famed attacking prowess was on show much today. He had to do so much defending, admittedly against average kicks and below average half back play, that he wasn't able to join in as he has done in plenty of games this year....games often where Wigan have been superior unlike today where it was much more even.

Think its easy to say that a fullback is now a third half back, especially as Wigan are playing a good half back at fullback to allow him to gain more experience and join the attack as it suits him. Recall that Jonathon Davies played plenty of games at fullback for Widnes when he first signed which allowed him to do the same, so perhaps not such a new idea.

Still feel that a fullback who becomes a half back on some plays is the gaining of one thing while forfeiting another. Brent Webb regularly joined the line and when Leeds had a better all round side, it was profitable. Now they are under more pressure, it leaves them exposed if he dedicates energy to it. I'm not sure that Webb and Tomkins are that effective when it comes to defending their line, something that a fullback must be able to do (in my opinion), notwithstanding the eyecatching attack that did/do bring.

Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again..... : Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:10 am  

We need some players in the back line that can do something with tue ball in hand out of nothing. The just ain't any flair or anyone with the ability to make something happen and that's why we can't beat a top team.

Other than that 10 min spell when Jamie scored his two tries, I was thinking we could play for a week and not score.

The game against the pies in Cardiff, the game at DW and the semi was tight but we can't pull anything out of the bag anymore as we've no special players in the backs.

I'm not saying our backs are rubbish but IMO not good enough against top teams in big games and until we invest in some good attacking backs I don't think we will win anything for many years.

Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again..... : Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:12 pm  

St pete wrote:

We need some players in the back line that can do something with tue ball in hand out of nothing. The just ain't any flair or anyone with the ability to make something happen and that's why we can't beat a top team.

Other than that 10 min spell when Jamie scored his two tries, I was thinking we could play for a week and not score.

The game against the pies in Cardiff, the game at DW and the semi was tight but we can't pull anything out of the bag anymore as we've no special players in the backs.

I'm not saying our backs are rubbish but IMO not good enough against top teams in big games and until we invest in some good attacking backs I don't think we will win anything for many years.

Cant agree with you St P. I think our backs are as good as the pies. Who would I want from their backs - none with the exception of bambi.
The problem with our backs yesterday was that - as Simmons said - we were too lateral = predictable and I blame Leon for this. Shenton and Makinson got no ball whatsover and if they had have done the goons defence would have struggled to contain us.

When we scored our tries it was the only two times in the game we actually tried to do something different. Try 1 was the result of a shenton break on our right and try 2 was a result of robes going for it down the middle.

Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again..... : Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:34 pm  

St pete wrote:

Shenton - average centre, doesn't get enough ball and can he liability in defence.
Meli - good with ball but never a centre

I couldn't agree more abour Shenton, he was very lazy for the first Wigan try. I would have expected more urgency from him with it being a semi, if you can bare it then watch it again, he just casualy ambles across and doesn't put in any effort at all to close them down. With ball in hand he's a good player but he's not what you would call an X factor back, thats the problem with your backline is it doesn't have much X factor in the three quarters like it used to have down the years.

If you comapre this current backline to what saints have had in the past then its very average at best, Wellens and Meli are past their best, Shenton is average, Foster is ok but he's far from the finished article.

I'd say you need a new fullback (need to see how Hohaia goes), 2 better centres and at least one very dangerous winger (Broughton or Tom Briscoe maybe), a new scrum half, another prop to replace Graham, a classy back rower with pace in the Lee Gilmour mould, a better impact hooker or starting hooker and use Roby as the impact after 15 - 20 mins) and a classy loose forward, down the years you have had some very classy 13's.

Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again..... : Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:21 pm  

Rob Wire wrote:

I couldn't agree more abour Shenton, he was very lazy for the first Wigan try. I would have expected more urgency from him with it being a semi, if you can bare it then watch it again, he just casualy ambles across and doesn't put in any effort at all to close them down. With ball in hand he's a good player but he's not what you would call an X factor back, thats the problem with your backline is it doesn't have much X factor in the three quarters like it used to have down the years.

If you comapre this current backline to what saints have had in the past then its very average at best, Wellens and Meli are past their best, Shenton is average, Foster is ok but he's far from the finished article.

I'd say you need a new fullback (need to see how Hohaia goes), 2 better centres and at least one very dangerous winger (Broughton or Tom Briscoe maybe), a new scrum half, another prop to replace Graham, a classy back rower with pace in the Lee Gilmour mould, a better impact hooker or starting hooker and use Roby as the impact after 15 - 20 mins) and a classy loose forward, down the years you have had some very classy 13's.

So you're saying we need 9 new players? Why dont we just get a full new team...