Re: Injuries : Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:15 pm  

Saint Simon wrote:

I'd rather have Gaskell and Lomax in the halves. Scott Moore is never a 7

No he's not. But if Leon isn't playing, neither should Gaskell. It's so unfair to throw a kid, who doesn't seem to be naturally talented in terms of organising a team anyway, into the scrum half role with another inexperienced half back. Gaskell will do well to come through this season with his career intact the way Saints are using him. Every game he plays his head will drop that bit further as things don't come off because no one is advising and instructing him.

This is EXACTLY why Long coming back would be a wonderful thing for Saints. This season is a mess, but bringing someone with experience in would do wonders for the kids like Gaskell.

Re: Injuries : Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:18 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

No he's not. But if Leon isn't playing, neither should Gaskell. It's so unfair to throw a kid, who doesn't seem to be naturally talented in terms of organising a team anyway, into the scrum half role with another inexperienced half back. Gaskell will do well to come through this season with his career intact the way Saints are using him. Every game he plays his head will drop that bit further as things don't come off because no one is advising and instructing him.

This is EXACTLY why Long coming back would be a wonderful thing for Saints. This season is a mess, but bringing someone with experience in would do wonders for the kids like Gaskell.

Sink or swim time for the kids with a big prize for the winner (s) with Leon possibly going at the end of the year too, if these two make a decent fist of it they could be our half back pairing for the next decade, if not we're no worse off than we are now

Re: Injuries : Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:22 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

No he's not. But if Leon isn't playing, neither should Gaskell. It's so unfair to throw a kid, who doesn't seem to be naturally talented in terms of organising a team anyway, into the scrum half role with another inexperienced half back. Gaskell will do well to come through this season with his career intact the way Saints are using him. Every game he plays his head will drop that bit further as things don't come off because no one is advising and instructing him.

This is EXACTLY why Long coming back would be a wonderful thing for Saints. This season is a mess, but bringing someone with experience in would do wonders for the kids like Gaskell.

I have to say, Saddened!, that you do talk a load of bollox sometimes!

Gaskell is making good progress. His mistakes are howlers, but that's because he's a noob. He pulled off at least two try assists on Friday, some lovely passing. His first kick was fab. He works hard in defence. He takes on the line. Damn, he does everything his sidekick wasn't doing! I don't think he will be allowed to lose confidence. I think he will be encouraged to learn and grow from this opportunity. He must know that this is his big chance to shine. I say let him show that he can. It's going to be a struggle for us no matter what happens unless or until Leon returns so we may as well develop some young talent in the process.

Foster was thrown in at the deep end last season. He sunk at first but then he learned how to swim, and he learned pretty fast. While the halves are a more complex position, obviously, there is no reason to believe that Gaskell can't learn fast too.

Re: Injuries : Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:01 am  

Mugwump wrote:

We certainly can't draw any future conclusions as it would be akin to arguing that because a coin has landed on its head ten times it will probably land on its head again, which is the classic "Gambler's Fallacy".

Can't agree with this.

Some players are more prone to injury than others. Some people are more prone to certain ailments or diseases than others. Some people have stronger hearts than others. Some people have stronger bones than others. It's not as simple as place and time, our bodies are all different.

Of course you're right that we can't say with any certainty that Roby will be available for selection more often than Wheeler for the rest of his Saints career. We can have a pretty good educated guess based on their apparent physical durability though. To say it's nothing more than a coin toss is daft IMO, but hey I could be wrong.

To change the subject, I hope we don't see Wheeler at 7 this weekend. Too crucial a position to have him taking up in his second game back - I'd go Scott Moore at 7 and Gaskell at 6.

Re: Injuries : Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:11 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

Foster was thrown in at the deep end last season. He sunk at first but then he learned how to swim, and he learned pretty fast. While the halves are a more complex position, obviously, there is no reason to believe that Gaskell can't learn fast too.

It's a completely different situation to Foster though. Foster played on the wing which means he has no responsibility bar his own game, he floundered at centre, when he had to do a bit more thinking, and was not played there again. He's more comfortable now, and I've no problem with him being in the team, in a year or two he may well be ready to move to centre again when he has more experience of playing first team rugby.

Gaskell at 7, with Lomax at 6, needs to concetrate on his own game and run the team around the pitch. As you say, his howlers are down to him being a noob, how can he develop when he has to concentrate on what everyone else is doing as as well? He is developing, and has in no way been the worst player on the pitch, but he is at a stage of his career when he needs to concentrate on his own game. He needs the freedom of being allowed to take a step back and not be the go to man on every set of 6. Saddened isn't saying he's not good enough full stop, he's saying he's not experienced enough to be the General at 7 that is needed. Hence why Gaskell needs an experienced player alongside him, to take the pressure off. Eastmond isn't experienced enough at 7 to be that General and he's 3/4 years more advanced than Gaskell in his career. This is a point that is often lost in discussion over Eastmond and his performances.

This isn't a slight on Gaskell, it's an acknowledgement that he's a kid in his first full season. Too much exposure and responsibility at this stage can ruin a players career. I can see why Long being brought in would be looked on as being favourable, but only for cover for Pryce, not as his partner when he returns to fitness.

Re: Injuries : Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:28 pm  

Its a dilema, I can see the potential for getting an experienced halfback back, but i really think Longy is (way) past it. I'd favour the sink or swim tactic, (risky as it is) myself

Re: Injuries : Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:39 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

Can't agree with this.

Some players are more prone to injury than others. Some people are more prone to certain ailments or diseases than others. Some people have stronger hearts than others. Some people have stronger bones than others.

The point I'm making is that "injury proneness" is unknowable. Even if a player has some weakness in a ligament or a tendon etc. and he injures the same again - we can't say for sure that a fully fit person wouldn't have suffered precisely the same injury. For all we know the load that was placed on the body part may have been too much even for a healthy person to take.

If we cannot know for sure whether a player is prone to injury it's pretty pointless to bring the notion of "injury proneness" into debate.

Re: Injuries : Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:40 pm  

Saint Simon wrote:

Its a dilema, I can see the potential for getting an experienced halfback back, but i really think Longy is (way) past it. I'd favour the sink or swim tactic, (risky as it is) myself

I agree with you, personally I wouldn't go for him. Isn't he injured anyway? That would negate any benefit needed from Pryce missing. He's also want at least a year.

We may be better looking at a short term loan from the NRL or something similar, just to cover the Pryce injury.

Re: Injuries : Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:42 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

The point I'm making is that "injury proneness" is unknowable. Even if a player has some weakness in a ligament or a tendon etc. and he injures the same again - we can't say for sure that a fully fit person wouldn't have suffered precisely the same injury. For all we know the load that was placed on the body part may have been too much even for a healthy person to take.

If we cannot know for sure whether a player is prone to injury it's pretty pointless to bring the notion of "injury proneness" into debate.

I agree to an extent - I'll stop saying Wheeler is injury prone and just say he has a proven track record of being unable to avoid injury

Re: Injuries : Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:43 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

The point I'm making is that "injury proneness" is unknowable. Even if a player has some weakness in a ligament or a tendon etc. and he injures the same again - we can't say for sure that a fully fit person wouldn't have suffered precisely the same injury. For all we know the load that was placed on the body part may have been too much even for a healthy person to take.

If we cannot know for sure whether a player is prone to injury it's pretty pointless to bring the notion of "injury proneness" into debate.

There may be a number of reasons, that he may or may not grow out of in the future, or stop being unlucky with, but what we do know is that at the moment Wheeler misses a lot of gametime due to injury. That means he is too unreliable to rely on as a half back until he comes out the other side and manages to put a decent run of consecutive games together.