Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:38 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Fair enough points. I think that describing Matty as Joe Ordinary is a little unfair. He may very well be limited but a lot of people rate him highly enough to include him in the Dream Team and the England team.

Didn't you say on the wigan board that Luke Walsh was a Journeyman ? but then Matty smith isn't just average?
For the record i don't think Matty is just average but you can't say that someone who was voted as one of the best palyers in the nrl is average but also claim Matty smith is awesome!

Wigan fans really are like the the lego men in the movie "everything is awesome!"

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:53 pm  

Going back to the OP.
Green, Dudson, James & Taylor have left Wigan.
A fee was received for Taylor the rest were OOC.
Of those arriving Patrick is on loan, Tautai was OOC, Greenwood returns from a loan at London and Mossop was released by the Eels and signed for Wigan.
Not all that much buying and selling really!

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:35 am  

SLS wrote:

Props pretty even. You've got to laugh.

Crosby, who managed 20 odd metres in the biggest game of the season and spent half the time on his booty after Masoe had nailed him, Flower who so enraged at Masoe's early aggression committed an offence that should have seen him locked up and Clubb, who managed 60 odd metres (half that of Thompson and Richards). Indeed, Wigan's props are a scary proposition

Placing a lot of hope in a Huddersfield bencher and an import from Wakefield are Wigan. Mossop has never been up to anything anyway, he wouldn't make the Saints 17.

What a ridiculous statement. Amor who you rated as your best prop in a previous thread, came from Wakey. Walmsley, who I rate as only behind Hill as the best prop in SL, came from Batley. What does it matter where they have been signed from, it's what they offer the team they are joining. Who would you have ahead of Mossop in your 17? He's got some nice medals for not being up to anything.
As for Crosby, I'm referring to later crackpot posts here as well, no one has ever on any thread said he is AWESOME. He is a fine young player who improved greatly last season. His stats are pretty good. Average gain just less than Amor. By the way have you seen the season stats for your 2 superstar 19 year olds. Average gain both of around 6 metres. Greenwood in a terrible London side averaged over 7. You think it's only Wigan fans who think their own players are AWESOME. How the hell can you say Percival is the best centre at both clubs. Did you see Sarginson play at all in the second half of the season. He's got areas to work on of course, but having seen how he played for England, he could be a very special player indeed. As for your rating of Gelling, what planet are you on? He improved as the season went on, he made hard yards in his own half as well as in attack. 11 try assists show he certainly has a rugby league players skillset. More assists and tries than Percival. Yes Gelling makes some mistakes but he does off the cuff moves that don't always work. I thought a fan of the Entertainers would see that.
You keep going on about what Wigan players did in the GF. We had one less forward for 78 minutes. We were never going to make metres down the middle a man light, it would have been tough doing that with a full compliment.
Can I just remind you how you got on with a man light against the team we absolutely smashed in the play offs.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:55 am  

SLS wrote:

Pace is a big asset, no doubt.

Many on here have taken my posts and either can't read or have deliberately taken them out of context.

I don't rate Gelling at all and I'm not a fan of Bowen, who in tight games is a liability for me. I said Sarginson has improved a lot but needs to run a centre's line more. Too often yet, he takes the winger's space or cuts in. That's fine against lazy defences but again in big games won't cut it. Let's have some context, Louie Macarthy-Scarsbrook was able to defend him pretty comfortably at OT. I've openly stated that Wigan's wingers are quality; I've stated their back row is good with O'Loughlin the best player in the country and I've said McIlorum is enormous for them (their most important player for me). I rate Farrell highly also. Their kids all look good potential but still have it all to prove and only time will tell. Smith and Williams I labelled 'pedestrian' because they run the same system that all Wigan's youth do and they've been shown to struggle hugely when teams defend that system properly. Take them out of their comfort zone and how good are they ? Smith quickly looks a run of the mill scrum half whilst Williams, we don't know yet but he's hardly looked like breaking a tight game yet IMO for Wigan.

My thoughts on their props are that Crosby is decent but little else and he's been hammered by Saints' props on a couple of occasions. I haven't commented on Flower save his incident at OT at all. I'm not a huge fan of Mossop. He's a workhorse who'll do the donkey work but is he an upgrade on Taylor ? Not a chance. I've stated Tautau is a good signing (their best IMO as he's a quality prop forward). Patrick is an impact prop who'll look awesome against lesser sides where Wigan invariably run up 50+ points but I'm not convinced he'll go anywhere near as well against bigger packs.

Nowhere have I absolutely slated Wigan's side anywhere, I've hammered their fans because most of them leave themselves open to absolute ridicule. Their fault, not mine. Wigan's team is still one of best in SL. Nowhere have I said anything else. Anyone with a brain can see it's between Saints, Wigan and Warrington. It's not rocket science.

No one has misread or taken any of your comments out of context. You have completely slagged off quite a few of our team. Then you say there isn't much between the two teams. Well your players must be pretty awful as well then, or your trying to dig yourself out of a pretty big hole.
Wigan fans are the same as fans of any club in any sport. You big up your own players. Your certainly not shy of doing it yourself. Let's see how that TURKEY Tomkins goes this year shall we!
As for leaving themselves open to ridicule, I suggest anyone wanting a good laugh read your posts on this thread.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:10 am  

Saint Simon wrote:

Didn't you say on the wigan board that Luke Walsh was a Journeyman ? but then Matty smith isn't just average?
For the record i don't think Matty is just average but you can't say that someone who was voted as one of the best palyers in the nrl is average but also claim Matty smith is awesome!

Wigan fans really are like the the lego men in the movie "everything is awesome!"

Taken out of context. If you'd care to read the thread, someone made the comment that the NRL and Super League were of a similar standard. i used the example of Luke Walsh to illustrate that in the NRL he didn't get near to rep standard (and listed all the half backs NSW had used in his time) and yet he is the best half back in Super League. I used the term 'journeyman' in NRL terms. Then someone pointed out that he came 7th in the Dally M one year, so I agreed that i was over egging it a bit.

Matty is a limited player who has improved no end at Wigan. He does his job well, so much so that he is the current England scrum half. They were very close to beating both NZ and Aus with him in the team, so he wasn't a disaster in the job. The England team looks the strongest we've had for over a decade.

I'm happy to discuss these things with you, but I'm not really interested in name calling. I'm not stupid and neither are you, so let's not bring this down to the level of "You said..." without at least trying understand the point being made. I'm sure you are capable of nuanced discussion.

Just to emphasize for those who are not - Luke Walsh is the best half back in Super League. In the NRL he was not in the top half dozen (except for one year) and came nowhere near to representing NSW or Australia. So if I say he is the best in Super League - then ergo - he is better than Matty Smith.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:36 am  

I think there's a good argument to suggest Walsh was the NRL equivalent of Matty Smith. A good scrum half with all the necessary skills to do a good job for his club. Being at Penrith probably won't have helped him challenge for rep hours as they tend to struggle. All of a sudden, buying NRL clubs have realised that quality half backs are thin on the ground, Penrith were going well and there was a bit of a kerfuffle from a couple of clubs trying to hijack the contract he's signed with Saints.
In SL, he's playing for a top club and probably finds things a tad easier. That's potentially why he's standing out more than when he was at PEnrith.

Matty Smith is no world beater, but good scrum halfs are few and far between and while he may be limited, he's pretty consistent, unlike some "superstar" halfs that go into hiding 50% of big matches. He's not a player to be sniffed at.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:21 am  

SuffolkCherryPie wrote:

What a ridiculous statement. Amor who you rated as your best prop in a previous thread, came from Wakey. Walmsley, who I rate as only behind Hill as the best prop in SL, came from Batley. What does it matter where they have been signed from, it's what they offer the team they are joining. Who would you have ahead of Mossop in your 17? He's got some nice medals for not being up to anything.

It doesn't matter. I haven't said it does. What I said was that you're putting a lot of hope in them. I've already said I like Tautai. Patrick I've said is an impact player who may not have the same impact against good sides. Mossop isn't in the same universe as Amor or Walmsley. He wouldn't offer anywhere near the impact of Masoe and I wouldn't swap him for any of our young props, Thompson, Richards, Savelio etc.

SuffolkCherryPie wrote:

As for Crosby, I'm referring to later crackpot posts here as well, no one has ever on any thread said he is AWESOME. He is a fine young player who improved greatly last season. His stats are pretty good. Average gain just less than Amor. By the way have you seen the season stats for your 2 superstar 19 year olds. Average gain both of around 6 metres. Greenwood in a terrible London side averaged over 7. You think it's only Wigan fans who think their own players are AWESOME.

Average gain similar to an Amor that wasn't fit for more than half a season. To those with a clue, he was still nowhere near fitness when he came back as well. Crosby isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Amor. Greenwood I haven't even mentioned (???), however I think he looks a talent. Your comparison is pretty fruitless. Greenwood was a frontline prop at London, Thompson and Richards were 4th/5th option, Thompson in particular playing as a third prop when on the field. If you can't see the ability in Thompson, then there's no helping you. What's even more pleasing is that they were both fantastic in the biggest game of the season. Temperament is something that is difficult to coach; they both look like they've got it. Crosby, on the biggest stage, well.....got battered and offered nothing,

SuffolkCherryPie wrote:

How the hell can you say Percival is the best centre at both clubs. Did you see Sarginson play at all in the second half of the season. He's got areas to work on of course, but having seen how he played for England, he could be a very special player indeed.

I like Sarginson, as I've already said, he's a talent. However, he isn't that great. Defensively, he's very, very vulnerable. He needs to learn a centre's line, which Percival has naturally. I appreciate they are both young, both talented but I wouldn't swap Percival for any of your backline. His potential is through the roof. Of course, I wouldn't expect a daft Wiganer to recognise it.

SuffolkCherryPie wrote:

As for your rating of Gelling, what planet are you on? He improved as the season went on, he made hard yards in his own half as well as in attack. 11 try assists show he certainly has a rugby league players skillset. More assists and tries than Percival. Yes Gelling makes some mistakes but he does off the cuff moves that don't always work. I thought a fan of the Entertainers would see that.

Gelling's crap. My opinion. If you don't like it - tough, I really don't care. However, for the sake of your daft lot over the lump, Gelling played more matches, in a side that tactically plays much more lateral than St Helens and in a side that didn't lose it's entire playmaking contingent and could barely pass in the final third of the season. Stats, in this instance, mean jack poop. Again, one cannot expect a daft Wiganer to see this. EVERYTHING IS AWESOME.

SuffolkCherryPie wrote:

You keep going on about what Wigan players did in the GF. We had one less forward for 78 minutes. We were never going to make metres down the middle a man light, it would have been tough doing that with a full compliment.

You stil had props on the park. You just couldn't use them. In much the same way you daft lot denigrate St Helens' inability to break you down easily without recognising the lack of a single half, the utilisation of Turner, Flanagan and Wellens as pivots and Percival shoved to the wing to incorporate LMS at centre, I'm not accepting any excuses for your props' inability to make metres. They got battered, hence you kept going wide and going nowhere. Even when you opened us up, one can always rely on Bowen to love it up on the big occasion.

SuffolkCherryPie wrote:

Can I just remind you how you got on with a man light against the team we absolutely smashed in the play offs.

And this means what ? Read the papers, nobody gives a poop. You lot keep heaping the pressure on yourselves with your misguided belief that you're some form of invincible RL force. You aren't, you're pretty one dimensional in truth. Your own coach has publicly stated that he's looking to change things a bit this season; why the love do you think that is ?!?! It isn't because he has upmost confidence in your ability to win everything with the same poop you've passed off as rugby over the last couple of years. He wants you to play straighter, compete more in the middle and offload a little. It's because he knows teams have figured your set play shift out and learned that dominating you in the middle renders that set piece much easier to control. Obviously, your own fans can't even see this and blindly continue with their mental optimism. Rock the love on.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:39 am  

Oh, and before you daft lot go apeshit at my last post, I'd just like to acknowledge that faults are there to be improved on. I could list off a shitload of faults that Saints players and the team have or Warrington's, Leeds', anyone. However, this is a thread about Wigan so what's the point in that ?

All I hope for is a good season with plenty more British talent establishing itself. May the best team win and if that be Wigan, so be it. I won't have any trouble coming back in a year and congratulating whoever wins it. I just hope for a quality season of rugby.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:16 pm  

Greenwood I haven't even mentioned (???), however I think he looks a talent. Your comparison is pretty fruitless. Greenwood was a frontline prop at London, Thompson and Richards were 4th/5th option, Thompson in particular playing as a third prop when on the field. If you can't see the ability in Thompson, then there's no helping you

I have never said I don't rate either of them, I merely put Greenwood in as an example. What difference does it make whether they are front line or third prop by the way. surely it's easier for a third prop to make yards when the defence is tiring in either half.

I like Sarginson, as I've already said, he's a talent. However, he isn't that great. Defensively, he's very, very vulnerable. He needs to learn a centre's line, which Percival has naturally. I appreciate they are both young, both talented but I wouldn't swap Percival for any of your backline. His potential is through the roof. Of course, I wouldn't expect a daft Wiganer to recognise it.

His defence improved greatly last season, defended well in the 4 nations. A daft Saints fan wouldn't recognise that though. Sarginsons potential is just the same as Percival.

You stil had props on the park. You just couldn't use them. In much the same way you daft lot denigrate St Helens' inability to break you down easily without recognising the lack of a single half, the utilisation of Turner, Flanagan and Wellens as pivots and Percival shoved to the wing to incorporate LMS at centre, I'm not accepting any excuses for your props' inability to make metres. They got battered, hence you kept going wide and going nowhere. Even when you opened us up, one can always rely on Bowen to love it up on the big occasion.

For the love of God, how many times do we have to do this. We only had one prop on the pitch at any one time after Flower was sent off.
Going nowhere. Sarginson made 191 metres! We bombed a couple of good chances made out wide, so we certainly weren't going nowhere. I've read plenty of posts from sensible Saints fans, sayng they were worried every time we attacked out wide. I pointed out how you lot lost a 10 point lead when down to 12 men against the Giants. I take it you're not accepting any excuses for that loss then.

It isn't because he has upmost confidence in your ability to win everything with the same poop you've passed off as rugby over the last couple of years.

The last 2 years we've won the double and lost a GF, which we probably would have won without Flowers moment of madness. We scored the most tries last season. We need to have other options of course, Wane has recognised that, but our rugby has been pretty effective the last 2 seasons.

You lot keep heaping the pressure on yourselves with your misguided belief that you're some form of invincible RL force.

Show me one person who has said this. As i said before, every fan of every club in any sport, always rates their own players higher than other teams. It's part of life. Your obvious hatred of Wigan has made you look a right tool on this thread. As your fellow saints fans have commented, this could come back to bite you on the bum come next October.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:36 pm  

SuffolkCherryPie wrote:

... and lost a GF, which we probably would have won without Flowers moment of madness...

You were always going to lose that grand final. Wigan had one plan which always fell apart when the opposition got right up in Wigan's face. That's what Saints did from the kick off and straight away Wigan lost it in the guise of Flower. If it wasn't Flower it would have been someone else.

Anytime through the season a team with fast line speed got right up in Wigan's face and cut down the game plan Wigan fell apart. Wigan win when the opposition back off (usually because they are intimidated). If it wasn't Flower doing his stupid deed then it would have been something else - passes out to the wing flying past the winger and into touch, stupid penalties, knocking on at the PTB etc. etc. Wigan do all these things in spades when they are under pressure.

Wigan were doomed to lose that final because they are Wigan, they came with one game plan and it was knocked aside. Saints played it perfect, they got right into Wigan's face from the first second then watched Wigan implode through their own stupidity.

All the neutrals I have spoken to have been absolutely made up that Saints won because they see how Wigan play.