Re: bulls might go bust? : Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:16 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Terrrible, shocking news to see Bradford go to the wall if it happens, and yet another nail in the coffin of British RL. The numpties who've run that club down the years have some very serious questions to answer over the disastrous way they've gone about it.

I've been saying for years that Superleague is completely unsustainable in it's current format and there simply just isn't the money in the game to be able to afford to compete with RU or NRL for players' wages in any way shape or form anymore. The Tomkins "loophole" was a desperate last attempt by the RL to try to compete and it will ultimately be futile. Our long term future is either to continue as a parochial, semi-pro, glorified pub-league game or to re-merge with RU in some form.

There are many sensible posts on this thread (leaving aside the Sad one's efforts, obviously ) and this is one of them.

I'm not in favour of a merger with RU but we definitely need a massive change in direction and a complete overhaul of the RFL's mangement and structures.

If it's true that most clubs can't afford to pay the full salary cap figure then that is a damning indictment of the financial faliure of professional RL. The cap hasn't been raised in 15 years or so, which means that in real terms it's worth probably only about 65% of the value at the outset (due to inflation). This alone shows how the game has gone backwards in the SL era. It is now very weak financially.

Re: bulls might go bust? : Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:46 am  

Deano G wrote:

There are many sensible posts on this thread (leaving aside the Sad one's efforts, obviously ) and this is one of them.

I'm not in favour of a merger with RU but we definitely need a massive change in direction and a complete overhaul of the RFL's mangement and structures.

If it's true that most clubs can't afford to pay the full salary cap figure then that is a damning indictment of the financial faliure of professional RL. The cap hasn't been raised in 15 years or so, which means that in real terms it's worth probably only about 65% of the value at the outset (due to inflation). This alone shows how the game has gone backwards in the SL era. It is now very weak financially.

I personally can't think of anything worse than a merger with RU either, but it's hard to see how RL is going to survive as a genuinely high profile professional sport in the UK 10/20 years down the line at the current rate frankly. The unstoppable behemoth of football is eating into our core support and talent pools like never before, RU is inexorably on the rise too sucking up players (if not supporters) that would once have been ours, and all the attempts at expansion to compete are never anything but embarassing failures. The decline in the level of talent in our game over the last 10 years alone has been nothing short of frightening. The really alarming thing though is that our game is getting less and less entertaining to watch with every passing season at exactly the same time as RU is gradually cottoning to the fact that their game stinks as a spectacle and are apeing us bit by bit to get themselves ever more watchable.

The 3 monkey brigade on here might want to taunt me for my heresy, but I genuinely see nothing but a fairly bleak medium to long term future for our game and I can't understand how anyone could predict much else really.

Re: bulls might go bust? : Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:58 am  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

I personally can't think of anything worse than a merger with RU either, but it's hard to see how RL is going to survive as a genuinely high profile professional sport in the UK 10/20 years down the line at the current rate frankly. The unstoppable behemoth of football is eating into our core support and talent pools like never before, RU is inexorably on the rise too sucking up players (if not supporters) that would once have been ours, and all the attempts at expansion to compete are never anything but embarassing failures. The decline in the level of talent in our game over the last 10 years alone has been nothing short of frightening. The really alarming thing though is that our game is getting less and less entertaining to watch with every passing season at exactly the same time as RU is gradually cottoning to the fact that their game stinks as a spectacle and are apeing us bit by bit to get themselves ever more watchable.

The 3 monkey brigade on here might want to taunt me for my heresy, but I genuinely see nothing but a fairly bleak medium to long term future for our game and I can't understand how anyone could predict much else really.

You're right about the bleak future. If we carry on the way we are there is a risk that the game reverts to being semi-pro because most clubs won't be able to pay wages that make it worthwhile for the majority of the squad to be full time (if we have another 15 years without a rise in the SC because clubs can't afford to spend any more then inflation will see to that).

I'm not sure about the entertainment point. I think the game is still great to watch (the main problem for me is the poor quality of many officials and their desire to hog the limelight, but that's a different topic!) but you are right to highlight how other sports have improved their offering, particularly RU which is a vastly different game in entertainment terms compared with 20 years ago (it's still behind league, but the gap is narrower).

By the way, who are the 3 monkey brigade?

Re: bulls might go bust? : Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:34 am  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

I personally can't think of anything worse than a merger with RU either, but it's hard to see how RL is going to survive as a genuinely high profile professional sport in the UK 10/20 years down the line at the current rate frankly. The unstoppable behemoth of football is eating into our core support and talent pools like never before, RU is inexorably on the rise too sucking up players (if not supporters) that would once have been ours, and all the attempts at expansion to compete are never anything but embarassing failures. The decline in the level of talent in our game over the last 10 years alone has been nothing short of frightening. The really alarming thing though is that our game is getting less and less entertaining to watch with every passing season at exactly the same time as RU is gradually cottoning to the fact that their game stinks as a spectacle and are apeing us bit by bit to get themselves ever more watchable.

The 3 monkey brigade on here might want to taunt me for my heresy, but I genuinely see nothing but a fairly bleak medium to long term future for our game and I can't understand how anyone could predict much else really.

Don't talk wet.

Why is it that rugby league fans have a morbid obsession with merging with Rugby Union? Just who do you think is going to agree to such a merger? You don't want it, I don't want it and I don't think I'm stretching plausibility if I suggest that 99% of the people who pay good money to watch RL each week don't want it either. In fact it's probably just about the last thing in the world they want. So in what possible universe would it be in the RFL's interests to merge the game with Rugby Union?

What evidence do you have to support your suggestion that the 'unstoppable behemoth' of football is eating into our support? I'm sure last time I looked attendances and tv viewing figures were significantly up. Despite the unfortunate plight of Bradford, the governing body continues to post profits. It may have escaped your notice, but one of the biggest football clubs in Europe is currently in administration, and many more are strongly rumoured to be going the same way. Rugby League is not the only sport whose major clubs are suffering from HMRC's stronger stance on unpaid taxes.

Regarding the decline in talent that you identify, I think you are making the same mistake Wigan fans always made in the decade from 1997 of equating the fortunes of their own club with those of the league as a whole. Saints have lost a lot of talented players, but plenty more are running around in the game as a whole.

Re: bulls might go bust? : Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:06 am  

I support St Helens, who've just moved into a lovely new facilty and ar egetting bigger crowds than ever. Our local rivals, Wire and Wigan, are also enjoying a lot of success in regard specators.

On the whole, the clubs seem to be doing well. Most have started to produce decent youngsters and crowds are generally on the up. SKY figures are also decent reading.

If you're looking for a day when sports clubs are wise investments, you'll be waiting a long time.
Sale, one of the few top northern RU clubs loses money hand over fist and only continues thanks to a ritch backer. Newcastle are in a similar poor situation.

Rugby league should be kicking on, which it doesn't do as well as it should, but its not all doom and gloom.

Re: bulls might go bust? : Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:14 am  

Deano G wrote:

By the way, who are the 3 monkey brigade?

Oh, you know - the 3 monkeys "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no good of Meli". Just me being clever again

Dux wrote:

Don't talk wet.

Why is it that rugby league fans have a morbid obsession with merging with Rugby Union? Just who do you think is going to agree to such a merger? You don't want it, I don't want it and I don't think I'm stretching plausibility if I suggest that 99% of the people who pay good money to watch RL each week don't want it either. In fact it's probably just about the last thing in the world they want. So in what possible universe would it be in the RFL's interests to merge the game with Rugby Union?

Absolutely - give me a Saints team full of amateurs playing RL in the Dog & Duck league over us playing 15-a-side tennis in the Aviva thingumajig any day of the week. But that is how it will go and we all need to get used to it. At the end of the day money talks and our sport is run by fools, and a merger with RU would be a massive coup for RU and would generate tons of money (at least in the short term) for all of these ever more desperate and insolvent RL clubs that I fear we're going to be hearing about in coming months/years. I don't think it will ever happen, but it definitely could...

Dux wrote:

What evidence do you have to support your suggestion that the 'unstoppable behemoth' of football is eating into our support?

Walk down any street in St. Helens or, more to the point, a Superleague starved hinterland town like Leigh, Barrow or Featherstone. Count how many Liverpool, Man U etc. shirts you see, or kids kicking a football around - compare that to the number of local RL team shirts or kids throwing a rugby ball around. Compare that to how things were 30/40 years ago. Discuss.

Dux wrote:

Regarding the decline in talent that you identify, I think you are making the same mistake Wigan fans always made in the decade from 1997 of equating the fortunes of their own club with those of the league as a whole. Saints have lost a lot of talented players, but plenty more are running around in the game as a whole.

OK. You name me a team of any 17 players taken from the entirety of the current Superleague that could have given a game to any of the Saints, Bradford, Leeds or Wigan sides circa 2000. Name me 10 players currently playing in SL that could realistically have made a Saints starting 17 in 2000. I dare you.

Re: bulls might go bust? : Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:50 am  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Absolutely - give me a Saints team full of amateurs playing RL in the Dog & Duck league over us playing 15-a-side tennis in the Aviva thingumajig any day of the week. But that is how it will go and we all need to get used to it. At the end of the day money talks and our sport is run by fools, and a merger with RU would be a massive coup for RU and would generate tons of money (at least in the short term) for all of these ever more desperate and insolvent RL clubs that I fear we're going to be hearing about in coming months/years. I don't think it will ever happen, but it definitely could...

If RL is in as abject a mess as you suggest it is, why would it be a massive coup for RU to absorb it? It wouldn't make financial sense for any of the game's clubs to cease to exist, which is what would happen in a merger. It's a paranoid delusion.

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Walk down any street in St. Helens or, more to the point, a Superleague starved hinterland town like Leigh, Barrow or Featherstone. Count how many Liverpool, Man U etc. shirts you see, or kids kicking a football around - compare that to the number of local RL team shirts or kids throwing a rugby ball around. Compare that to how things were 30/40 years ago. Discuss.

Undoubtedly football has exploded in popularity. But that doesn't necessarily mean less interest in Rugby League. And it works both ways. I grew up in Ormskirk, and up until the mid 1990s you didn't see any RL shirts at all. Now they are a fairly regular sight. Only yesterday I stumbled upon a University RL match being played in front of 300 people in Sheffield on my way home from the post office. I can't give an objective figure on how many kids were kicking rugby balls around in St Helens 30/40 years ago, but I can tell you that 30/40 years ago our average attendance was around 6,000-7,000. Now it's higher than it's ever been, with the exeption of a glorious period in the 1950s. The same is pretty much true of most SL clubs.

Northampton_Saint wrote:

OK. You name me a team of any 17 players taken from the entirety of the current Superleague that could have given a game to any of the Saints, Bradford, Leeds or Wigan sides circa 2000. Name me 10 players currently playing in SL that could realistically have made a Saints starting 17 in 2000. I dare you.

The current Warrington, Leeds and Wigan sides, for starters. That's despite tighter overseas player restrictions and a 14 team competition. Regarding Saints circa 2000, a randomly selected starting 17 from that year (An away victory at Wigan, 9/7/00, taken from Saints Heritage Site), contains the following players:
Steve Hall
Julian O'Neill
Scott Barrow
Tim Jonkers
Vila Matautia
Mike Bennett.

Without meaning any disrespect, none of those players would get near a top 6 side now (with possible exeption of Bennett). Add to that players like Hoppe, Perelini, Nickle, Joynt and Wellens who were all very good players but by no means better than everyone playing in SL today.

Re: bulls might go bust? : Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:21 pm  

You only have to go to any amature rugby leagueteam in St Helens alone to see what an utter idiot NS is regarding kids not playing RL rather than football.
Blackbrook for one club had 6 differant age groups playing last weekend with probably the same playing away the club was bursting at the seams.
My Nephew plays football on Sat and RL on Sunday go figure NS

Re: bulls might go bust? : Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 pm  

Rommel wrote:

You only have to go to any amature rugby leagueteam in St Helens alone to see what an utter idiot NS is regarding kids not playing RL rather than football.
Blackbrook for one club had 6 differant age groups playing last weekend with probably the same playing away the club was bursting at the seams.
My Nephew plays football on Sat and RL on Sunday go figure NS

Tell you what, give me your address and I'll send you an autographed photo - "To my biggest fan, Rommel. Love and hugs. NS". Quit rummaging through my bins and sniffing my laundry in the backyard and we won't need to go down the court injunction road, OK?

Re: bulls might go bust? : Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:38 pm  

Deano G wrote:

I'm not in favour of a merger with RU but we definitely need a massive change in direction and a complete overhaul of the RFL's mangement and structures.

How do you know? Do you know what the current RFL management structures are or are you basing your opinion on conjecture?

Deano G wrote:

It is now very weak financially.

I'm not trying to be a pain here but this kind of apocalyptic rhetoric serves no purpose. It does the game no favours. I'm not suggesting that people don't offer criticism of the sport but let's try to keep it factual. By all means come back and tell me you've looked through the books of all the Super League clubs and checked their liquidity. Until then I think we have to keep things on an even keel or we risk distorting the argument and making decisions based on incorrect assumptions.