Re: Sam Tomkins : Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:27 pm  

hotpot100 wrote:

I agree with your point of needing pace at full back, although Wello does a superb job for us at full back. The only point I wanted to make about the number of metres made by Tomkins compared to Wello is that our kicking game played a vital part, in that:

1. We kicked to Tomkins on the last tackle a hell of a lot (while Wigan kicked to Wello, Foster, Meli, and to touch).
2. Tomkins got the majority of our kicks on the full, whilst we had to retrieve the ball from the floor.

Both of those contibute in Tomkins being able to gain more metres.

I do agree though, that a pacy fullback is almost a requirement these days.

Has Wellens ever been tried (for an extended period of time) at loose forward? He's creative with the ball in hand, absolutely solid in defence, could play havoc as he would still have the ability to pop up anywhere across the line.

Re: Sam Tomkins : Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:34 pm  

inside_man wrote:

Has Wellens ever been tried (for an extended period of time) at loose forward? He's creative with the ball in hand, absolutely solid in defence, could play havoc as he would still have the ability to pop up anywhere across the line.

I like the idea of Wello at Loose Forward and could see it happening when he becomes too slow to play at full back anymore. Perhaps the reason we haven't yet signed a recognised out and out Loose Forward and rather just players to cover that position.

Re: Sam Tomkins : Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:24 am  

hang on. some on here are saying that tomkins is a class player?? hmm..(hopefully they have deleted their previous post about him)

Re: Sam Tomkins : Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:35 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

So?

Bowvey said

Bowvey wrote:

you cant control tomkins when hes at fulback thats why i like him playing there

To which you replied

SaintsFan wrote:

Don't be daft. We controlled him when we won at your place.

We didn't control Tomkins at full back when we won at Wigan because he didn't play there.

Stopping Tomkins is not just about "a couple of markers doing their job" any more than you can stop, say, Billy Slater in that way. Some players on their day are pretty much unplayable (just like Pryce has been at times in 2010) and there have been plenty of times this year when Tomkins has been just that. Unfortunately, he had a blinder on Saturday.

Re: Sam Tomkins : Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:03 am  

I know this is a Tomkins thread - I will come back to him in a minute......the issue we have with Eastmond, even when fully fit is that he is a drifter. He comes in and out of the game when he feels like it, which is not necessarily a bad thing, thats just the type of player he is. The problem is that no team can afford to have two drifters playing in the halves and unfortunately, Pryce is also a drifter, so when they are on the pitch together, Kyle isnt playing his natural game. The club/coaching staff will be working on Kyle to try to make him into another Longy who can control/dictate a game but this doesnt come naturally to him. I would love to see him develop into a world class half back so fingers crossed he has better luck with injuries and stays away from the dark side.

Back to Tomkins, hes a real natural talent and full back seems his best position - however, with McNamara at the helm, I not certain that we will see him playing there for England. His footwork and illusiveness are his real assets and from fullback, this gives teams a massive advantage. Whilst Wellens offers so much in reliability and dependability, he lacks that Billy Slater esq quality that causes the defence so many problems. Tomkins is showing that he has this kind of talent - maybe Maguire sees a young Slater in his camp and is grooming him for the same kind of stardom.

Re: Sam Tomkins : Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:16 am  

The Chief wrote:

I know this is a Tomkins thread - I will come back to him in a minute......the issue we have with Eastmond, even when fully fit is that he is a drifter. He comes in and out of the game when he feels like it, which is not necessarily a bad thing, thats just the type of player he is. The problem is that no team can afford to have two drifters playing in the halves and unfortunately, Pryce is also a drifter, so when they are on the pitch together, Kyle isnt playing his natural game. The club/coaching staff will be working on Kyle to try to make him into another Longy who can control/dictate a game but this doesnt come naturally to him. I would love to see him develop into a world class half back so fingers crossed he has better luck with injuries and stays away from the dark side.

I don't totally agree. Depsite playing wider roles for us when he first came through, since he first got his chances at scrum half I thought he looked very natural and composed at first receiver. However, what may take some more time to develop is his ability to execute a coaches specific game plan on the pitch, something that Pryce also lacks.

Talking with Dux we hypothosised somewhat in agreement with your sentiment that if Pryce were to go back to Bradford and we were to pick up a player like Barrett for a year, it would bring Kyle on a little more and help give him the extra smarts that a can help win tough games.

Re: Sam Tomkins : Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:05 am  

Offside Monkey wrote:

what may take some more time to develop is his ability to execute a coaches specific game plan on the pitch, something that Pryce also lacks.

Thats exactly what Im talking about. Kyle likes to pick and choose when to come into a game and do something significant (like the try against Wigan under the sticks at KR last season to win the game). What doesnt come naturally is the structured first receiver stuff and game plan plays that coaches like one of the half backs to take on. Thats what I mean when I called them drifters....they like to drift in and out of a game. Its the half back who does this role who is credited for "taking the team around the park and completely controlling the game".

Leon doesnt do this kind of structured work for the team either, which has forced Kyle into this role a bit more. Leon is more of an off the cuff finisher rather than structured player that a Barrett or Longy was by the time he retired.

Re: Sam Tomkins : Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:19 am  

The Chief wrote:

Leon doesnt do this kind of structured work for the team either, which has forced Kyle into this role a bit more. Leon is more of an off the cuff finisher rather than structured player that a Barrett or Longy was by the time he retired.

Given the common call that we need more penetration from full back in order to give us that attacking weapon STomkins has done for wigan, it would seem a plausible solution to move Leon to 1 and bing in a more tactical 6, using Flannery's quota sopt if neccesary. Leon would play basically the same role in attack, but we'd have a leg up on the tactical ladder.

All paper talk, of course. I've seen how much Pryce fancies it when the high ball goes up, and its not a great look on his face.

Re: Sam Tomkins : Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:00 pm  

The Chief wrote:

Its the half back who does this role who is credited for "taking the team around the park and completely controlling the game".

That's why Matty Smith stood out against Warrington. Whatever the debate may be about his quality, he stepped up and controlled that game, and to all the Saints fans around me, as well as me, it was like a breath of fresh air. Longy had been hit and miss in this area for it feels like ages and we haven't had an organising halfback all season, even though Pryce has tried to do that work (and has been more successful than Eastmond). We need another Smith (debate as to his quality aside because I just don't want to go there again!).

Re: Sam Tomkins : Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:39 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

Given the common call that we need more penetration from full back in order to give us that attacking weapon STomkins has done for wigan, it would seem a plausible solution to move Leon to 1 and bing in a more tactical 6, using Flannery's quota sopt if neccesary. Leon would play basically the same role in attack, but we'd have a leg up on the tactical ladder.

All paper talk, of course. I've seen how much Pryce fancies it when the high ball goes up, and its not a great look on his face.

Pryce would have made a devestating full back - except that he doesn't have the heart of someone like wellens who would do anything to prevent a try or take a catch with disregard to his own safety.