Re: Willie Manu : Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:01 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

The advantage of a youth player coming through would be that they are relatively cheaper over the long run and that in playing for their hometown side, you can engender some of that patriotic spirit that someone coming in would not naturally have which all other things being equal should provide some advantage.

I think having a sizeable contingent of local lads last season was one of the reasons we got such a massive turnout at the GF (after some pretty dire turnouts previously). There was a real buzz among fans about the local lads and they did bring the enthusiasm to matches that I think has been lacking for most of this season.

But over all this comes quality, if the quality is not good enough you can be as cheap and spirit filled as you like you will not acheive what those with quality can.

What do you mean by quality though? We played so many young players last season and yet got to a GF and in fact were winning it - when did we last do that? - until injuries struck x 3. And it was our youngest player on the pitch who turned the game in our favour. Yet there are people on here saying he is average!

It is just as easy to write off young players too early as it is to go OTT with gush over older players who appear to have played well in another team. I agree that balance is needed and sometimes last year we had to rely too much on too many young players at once (although I believe our worst defeat - with over half the team made up of young players against Hudds away - was still better than our defeat at Magic against Wigan with a team made up mostly of senior players?). But there were lots of games when I thought we had a great mix of youth and experience. This season, and into next, I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way. And I'm not even mentioning the foreign contingent, which has also grown on last year (and will only fall by one next). I find that disappointing but that is probably because I was one fan (among many, it has to be said) that really enjoyed supporting a team with so many local players in it last year. Loved it (although I didn't love the reason for it!).

Re: Willie Manu : Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:33 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

What do you mean by quality though? We played so many young players last season and yet got to a GF and in fact were winning it - when did we last do that? - until injuries struck x 3. And it was our youngest player on the pitch who turned the game in our favour. Yet there are people on here saying he is average!

Bringing Makinson into it is off topic for me, I'm talking Manu v Dixon, if you don't get the quality arguement here then there is no point me going over old ground. Manu is of better quality than Dixon, you can say otherwise, but I think you would find it hard to get anyone (including Dixon) to support this.

SaintsFan wrote:

It is just as easy to write off young players too early as it is to go OTT with gush over older players who appear to have played well in another team. I agree that balance is needed and sometimes last year we had to rely too much on too many young players at once (although I believe our worst defeat - with over half the team made up of young players against Hudds away - was still better than our defeat at Magic against Wigan with a team made up mostly of senior players?). But there were lots of games when I thought we had a great mix of youth and experience. This season, and into next, I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way. And I'm not even mentioning the foreign contingent, which has also grown on last year (and will only fall by one next). I find that disappointing but that is probably because I was one fan (among many, it has to be said) that really enjoyed supporting a team with so many local players in it last year. Loved it (although I didn't love the reason for it!).

I don't think Dixon has been written off too early. He is 22, if you see a RL career on average running from 18 -33. He is over a quarter of the way though his career, now you can't call time on everyone at the same time, however Dixon's contract is up and we have to look ahead, looking ahead we have a lot of players of similar styles, Dixon fits into this style too. So then we have to say well is Dixon better than others who we have or who we can sign? The answer is no. There is no point arguing that in the next 2 years he will be better than Sia or Manu, quite simply he won't. Wilkin is signed to 2015 so he's going to be used over the coming period. That leaves Flanaghan. In the end I think Flanaghan is the reason that Dixon is going, he was yet another back rower that we did not really need. Whilst he is no doubt a good player, for me he provides nothing that we did not already get from the likes of Dixon, Magennis et al.

However Royce felt the need for another squad type player in Flanaghan and so the club are left with the aftermath of that, Dixon's contract is up first and so he is the one to make way for a better quality of player, had Dixons contract been up next year and Flangahan been due up this year, it could well have been Flanaghan who made way for a better quality of player.

In the end RL is a short career and if you don't make a mark quick no one will wait till your 25/26 to see what you can do. Dixon would have been fine if we did not already have Wilkin tide to a long term deal or if we had not signed up Flanaghan. In the end Royce's recruitement and retention has done him in.

Re: Willie Manu : Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:38 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

Bringing Makinson into it is off topic for me, I'm talking Manu v Dixon,

Really? What a convenient sidestep.

I was replying to this post of yours, which didn't mention Dixon at all and which talked about kids:

I think you can do alot with kids actually and Wigan are a prime example of this. The question is one of quality, not youth, homegrown, imports, aging, etc.

The advantage of a youth player coming through would be that they are relatively cheaper over the long run and that in playing for their hometown side, you can engender some of that patriotic spirit that someone coming in would not naturally have which all other things being equal should provide some advantage.

But over all this comes quality, if the quality is not good enough you can be as cheap and spirit filled as you like you will not acheive what those with quality can. If we had a Willie Manu at Saints who we were throwing out in favour of a Willie Manu from Hull then there would be a good arguement that we are not doing well by the homegrown players, but we don't, so it's not an arguement.

If my reply was off topic then it was in response to your off topic post.

Re: Willie Manu : Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:45 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

Really? What a convenient sidestep.

I was replying to this post of yours, which didn't mention Dixon at all and which talked about kids:

If my reply was off topic then it was in response to your off topic post.

Feel free to try and bring me into this circle of chaos if you like but it will have to wait a very long time. I am far more patient than most. My post did not mention Dixon, but it was quite clearly implied as at the end of my post I bring it totally back to the point by saying

"... If we had a Willie Manu at Saints who we were throwing out in favour of a Willie Manu from Hull then there would be a good arguement that we are not doing well by the homegrown players, but we don't, so it's not an arguement..."

Re: Willie Manu : Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:50 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

I think having a sizeable contingent of local lads last season was one of the reasons we got such a massive turnout at the GF (after some pretty dire turnouts previously). There was a real buzz among fans about the local lads and they did bring the enthusiasm to matches that I think has been lacking for most of this season.

I think it was more likely that the big match charlies (who made up that increased turnout) thought we'd win the match, having turned over Wigan twice who were favourites and we were playing Leeds who had 'fluked' their way there.

Most fans couldn't care less who's in the team as long as they are winning.

Re: Willie Manu : Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:41 am  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

Most fans couldn't care less who's in the team as long as they are winning.

Nail-to-Head interface squarely hit.

Fill the team with Armenian prostitutes, Bengali coalminers and Martian mercenaries and noone will give a **** as long as they're winning. Fill it with bright eyed idealistic young 'Telliners who all wear the shirt with pride but who are losing and the fans'll be marching on Eamon's house with pitchforks. That's all that matters.

Re: Willie Manu : Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:30 am  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

I think it was more likely that the big match charlies (who made up that increased turnout) thought we'd win the match, having turned over Wigan twice who were favourites and we were playing Leeds who had 'fluked' their way there.

Most fans couldn't care less who's in the team as long as they are winning.

That could well be the case (on both points). I think we had beaten Wigan in the playoffs before though, yes?

Anectodally, around me at the GF people were talking a lot pre-match about the local lads.

Re: Willie Manu : Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:31 am  

bewareshadows wrote:

Feel free to try and bring me into this circle of chaos if you like but it will have to wait a very long time.

Once again, a completely unnecessary comment.

Couldn't care less myself. I was just responding to your post.

Re: Willie Manu : Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:57 pm  

Anyway...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18442094 Willie Manu has revealed how Sia Soliola and Tony Puletua convinced him to join St Helens for next season. Manu told BBC Radio Merseyside: "I met Sia with the Exiles and I know TP from my time in Australia. They both had good things to say. "It's a good club and they've got a new coach (Nathan Brown) coming in. I'm looking forward to the challenge." The Tonga international, 32, will move from Hull FC and has agreed a two-year contract with Saints. After lengthy discussions about the move with his family, Manu is confident he has made the right choice. "It took us about two months to finally come to a decision," said the back-row forward. "I talked it through with my wife, we weighed up all our options and we thought it was time for a chance and a new challenge. "I am still enjoying myself at Hull but there comes a time when you need a change and that's why I'm going to Saints. "I'm just glad it's done and dusted. I can concentrate on trying to finish on a good note at Hull and then think about St Helens." Manu, along with future Saints team-mates Puletua and Soliola, will start for the Exiles against England at Langtree Park on Saturday.

Anyway...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18442094 Willie Manu has revealed how Sia Soliola and Tony Puletua convinced him to join St Helens for next season. Manu told BBC Radio Merseyside: "I met Sia with the Exiles and I know TP from my time in Australia. They both had good things to say. "It's a good club and they've got a new coach (Nathan Brown) coming in. I'm looking forward to the challenge." The Tonga international, 32, will move from Hull FC and has agreed a two-year contract with Saints. After lengthy discussions about the move with his family, Manu is confident he has made the right choice. "It took us about two months to finally come to a decision," said the back-row forward. "I talked it through with my wife, we weighed up all our options and we thought it was time for a chance and a new challenge. "I am still enjoying myself at Hull but there comes a time when you need a change and that's why I'm going to Saints. "I'm just glad it's done and dusted. I can concentrate on trying to finish on a good note at Hull and then think about St Helens." Manu, along with future Saints team-mates Puletua and Soliola, will start for the Exiles against England at Langtree Park on Saturday.

Re: Willie Manu : Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:16 pm  

Albion wrote: Anyway...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18442094 Willie Manu has revealed how Sia Soliola and Tony Puletua convinced him to join St Helens for next season. Manu told BBC Radio Merseyside: "I met Sia with the Exiles and I know TP from my time in Australia. They both had good things to say. "It's a good club and they've got a new coach (Nathan Brown) coming in. I'm looking forward to the challenge." The Tonga international, 32, will move from Hull FC and has agreed a two-year contract with Saints. After lengthy discussions about the move with his family, Manu is confident he has made the right choice. "It took us about two months to finally come to a decision," said the back-row forward. "I talked it through with my wife, we weighed up all our options and we thought it was time for a chance and a new challenge. "I am still enjoying myself at Hull but there comes a time when you need a change and that's why I'm going to Saints. "I'm just glad it's done and dusted. I can concentrate on trying to finish on a good note at Hull and then think about St Helens." Manu, along with future Saints team-mates Puletua and Soliola, will start for the Exiles against England at Langtree Park on Saturday. Plus the ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££'s offered.

Albion wrote: Anyway...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18442094 Willie Manu has revealed how Sia Soliola and Tony Puletua convinced him to join St Helens for next season. Manu told BBC Radio Merseyside: "I met Sia with the Exiles and I know TP from my time in Australia. They both had good things to say. "It's a good club and they've got a new coach (Nathan Brown) coming in. I'm looking forward to the challenge." The Tonga international, 32, will move from Hull FC and has agreed a two-year contract with Saints. After lengthy discussions about the move with his family, Manu is confident he has made the right choice. "It took us about two months to finally come to a decision," said the back-row forward. "I talked it through with my wife, we weighed up all our options and we thought it was time for a chance and a new challenge. "I am still enjoying myself at Hull but there comes a time when you need a change and that's why I'm going to Saints. "I'm just glad it's done and dusted. I can concentrate on trying to finish on a good note at Hull and then think about St Helens." Manu, along with future Saints team-mates Puletua and Soliola, will start for the Exiles against England at Langtree Park on Saturday. Plus the ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££'s offered.