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Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:23 pm  
St pete wrote:
Jordan Turner IMO is a winger. He's got the makings of being a good centre but he needs a rocket up his bum. He's got no desire or motivation. He just goes thru the motions.

I'd honestly be looking for a centre and Turner being a winger.



I think it would depend on who you can recruit. If you can recruit a winger, he stays at centre, if you can recruit a centre then he can take Meli's Wing.
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Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:36 pm  
To those sirens shouting we must make a signing now, i give you one name Hohoia.

That is what happens when you make quick rash decisions.

Lance is a decent player, but when we signed him quite a few of us thought, yes he is a good player but were will he play for us? For me his best two positions are fullback and hooker, however we have better players there.

Sport is as much about luck as it is about skill in decision making. All the planning in the world can blow up in your face if a player suffers a key injury or someone you were looking to build your team around decides he wants to play RU or move to the NRL. In Eastmond, Saints lost the then England halfback, and in Graham we lost the Worlds best prop forward. No team would be able to handle such losses without repercussions.

A good example of luck in signings is Sean Long. He was a Wigan reject playing lower division football. Saints took a punt on him despite having other players in the halves. Many people at the time were wondering were he would fit into the team as we had Tommy Martyn, Bobbie Goulding, Lee Briers and Karl Hammond to cover in the halves, yet look how that all turned out.

Paul Wellens has for me been a St.Helens legend. He has been an anchor at the back for club and country, being one of the best British players of his generation. However for the last few years its been increasingly plain for people to see that the Anchor has been turning into a lead weight that has been dragging the team down. Last year Paul had an excellent season being our top try scorer, top tackle buster, top clean break maker and fourth best in try assists.
To a significant extent we were dependant on Paul last year to pull things out of the bag. This raised the conundrum in my mind that I felt it was time to hand over the number one shirt to a new player but in doing so the side would take a hit due to the readjustment the team would have to make in terms of playing style. I was worried about the scale of the hit we would take. We are seeing that hit now as by moving Lomax from the halves to the fullback slot it has left a gaping hole in the halves. It is to Nathan Browns credit that he has been prepared to take the tough decision and move things on rather than play it safe. Other recent coaches were not prepared to do this, and that has made the task all the harder for the team to adjust to life without Wello.

Saints have the nucleus for a good side. I can see that Brown is looking to give us more pace in the backline, we can see that in his signing of Turner, the use of Lomax and Makinson at fullback and the promotion of the pacey but young Percival that there is the makings of a strike threat from deep.

He has identified that the pack is small. I think this was masked in recent years by Graham and Roby. Graham did the work of two props, and Robys scooting made us yards that the forwards themselves couldnt make. Robys injury has shown to everyone how easily out muscled our front row is. By ridding ourselves of the addiction to scooting which was started by Milward, then we should have a more balanced side that in big games would be harder to combat. It wont simply be a case of stopping Roby from running at dummy half. I noticed before Robys injury that he was playing a different game this season. Gone was the obsession from running from dummy half, instead he was merely stepping out of dummy half and using his self as a foil for the other forwards to run onto. This to me was an indication of the change in style to a more orthodox gameplan of letting the props make the yards rather than the hooker.

I also think he knew we were short in the halves. Comments from him indicated that he was unsure with lance as a halfback, and selections have shown that he isnt keen to play Hohioa there, preferring him at hooker.
Lomax was moved from scrum half were his talent was being wasted, and Gaskell was fired off due to alleged lack of professionalism.
Wheeler i suspect is in Browns plans as one of the halfbacks, but has unfortunately suffered that serious injury.

I therefore suspect that next year Brown will want to bring in two big props and a scrum half.
Get that right and we will have the makings of a very good team.
Last edited by The Chair Maker on Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:37 pm  
bewareshadows wrote:
I think it would depend on who you can recruit. If you can recruit a winger, he stays at centre, if you can recruit a centre then he can take Meli's Wing.


Percival and jones are better than him.

Turner is one of them players that really frustrates me. If he put a extra 10% in he'd actually break the line. Hes just happy to be out there and go thru the motions.
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Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:47 pm  
St pete wrote:
Percival and jones are better than him.

Turner is one of them players that really frustrates me. If he put a extra 10% in he'd actually break the line. Hes just happy to be out there and go thru the motions.


Disagree with you. I thought Turner showed again against Hull KR that he can give a wingman some lovely passes.
He lacks the agility and change of pace to dance around people, but his size and pace does mean he sucks in tacklers and makes yards in the contact zone.

I get the impression Pete that what you are asking for is Mal Meninga, and because you arent getting that, you have dismissed his ability as a player.
Funnily enough when Meninga was at Saints there were some who felt he was lazy. :roll:
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Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:55 pm  
The Chair Maker wrote:
snip.


Excellent post mate.
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Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:59 pm  
The Chair Maker wrote:
Disagree with you. I thought Turner showed again against Hull KR that he can give a wingman some lovely passes.
He lacks the agility and change of pace to dance around people, but his size and pace does mean he sucks in tacklers and makes yards in the contact zone.

I get the impression Pete that what you are asking for is Mal Meninga, and because you arent getting that, you have dismissed his ability as a player.
Funnily enough when Meninga was at Saints there were some who felt he was lazy. :roll:


No mate I wasn't looking for a mal meninga (would be nice). Like I said, Turner had done ok and I've backed him on here when most have give him stick.

He just frustrates me because he's got ability. He's big, fast, strong, good footwork but he lacks that little desire to actually break the line.

Me saying he's a winger isn't put down, I just think he's more suited to Wing but could make a good centre if he tried that little harder.
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Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:27 pm  
He's only been here for a couple of months. The current squad had nothing to do with Nathan Brown so you can't blame for that side of things. For me, the main issue this season is the pack, and has been for a while now. We aren't talking about an issue than has just popped up this season, we have had this same problem for a while now. Luckily for us, we had James Graham who carried us on his back for a couple of years, and who do we replace him with? A Second Row in Anthony Laffranchi. I have no doubts that he would be a quality second rower, but out front row is so poor that we have no other option but to throw him in there. Even when we had Jammer, we were still struggling against the likes of Wigan and Wire's packs and what ever way you dress it up, we have been overachieving for years now. We reached the Semi Final last year - in fact we were 40 minutes away from Old Trafford. The worst thing that could have happened IMO. We needed to reassess things and start a fresh in Pre Season, and unfortunately 2012 papered over the cracks once again.

Wigan and Warrington have both been through periods like this one, but the fans got behind there club and backed them 100%. It may take a year, it may take two or even three, but we will come back stronger, I have no doubt about that. Leeds are coming to a stage now where the likes of Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow are approaching the end of their playing careers, and I expect that they will go through a similar sort of period to what we are going through. Brown has given a great amount of young players an opportunity this season, and although that may be down to the injury situation, he has trusted in them to do the job which will prove to be highly beneficial in the long run.

Our pack consists of five Second Rowers, and our only real Prop is Alex Walmsley - a signing from Batley who I imagined would only play half a dozen games this season. Paul Clough has been superb for us this season, but I still see him as a Back Rower personally. Our only other Prop, Josh Perry, is out injured once again, and LMS doesn't look as though he could care less at the minute. When things start to go wrong, the first man looked at is the coach, but there isn't anything he can do at the minute. He is doing his best with the squad he has, and he deserves a chance with a full squad before people start pointing the finger. We are the only team in the competition without a decent set of props and halves, and they are ultimately the key positions on the field. Look at Hull KR. They aren't superb out wide, but in Dobson and Burns they had two halves who knew exactly what they were doing, and we playing behind a set of props that ran hard and straight and took them forward. Nothing fancy, just hard work, and the halves gave them direction on the back of that.

We have had the same problems for years, and I can't understand how any of that is Nathan Brown's fault. Any coach in the world - no matter how good would struggle to coach these set of players, because the reality is, we aren't good enough in the key areas. You can't fault anyone for effort, but the fact of the matter is that you can't compete against the best sides without a decent set of Props, and a 6 and 7. Until we sort that out we won't go anywhere, no matter who is in charge.
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Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:36 pm  
The Chair Maker wrote:

A good example of luck in signings is Sean Long. He was a Wigan reject playing lower division football. Saints took a punt on him despite having other players in the halves. Many people at the time were wondering were he would fit into the team as we had Tommy Martyn, Bobbie Goulding, Lee Briers and Karl Hammond to cover in the halves, yet look how that all turned out.

I therefore suspect that next year Brown will want to bring in two big props and a scrum half.
Get that right and we will have the makings of a very good team.




I see your point re rushing anything but the situation with Long wasnt quite as you put it. Briers was already gone , Goulding was volatile, Martyn was injury prone Hammond was a loose forward by then and we were thin on the ground for cover. Longy was ripping it up at Widnes and was a known talent at the time - the pies only got rid for off field issues not a lack of talent.

I think a panic move would be silly but Stevie Wonder can see we need a scrum half so if we could get a decent one in I honestly dont see how we could go wrong (assuming we actually buy a scrum half and not another bloody fullback). If there was a Sean Long somewhere in the Championship I'd love us to sign him up !!
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Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:42 pm  
No1 Saint wrote:
I see your point re rushing anything but the situation with Long wasnt quite as you put it. Briers was already gone , Goulding was volatile, Martyn was injury prone Hammond was a loose forward by then and we were thin on the ground for cover. Longy was ripping it up at Widnes and was a known talent at the time - the pies only got rid for off field issues not a lack of talent.

I think a panic move would be silly but Stevie Wonder can see we need a scrum half so if we could get a decent one in I honestly dont see how we could go wrong (assuming we actually buy a scrum half and not another bloody fullback). If there was a Sean Long somewhere in the Championship I'd love us to sign him up !!


I'd get Sean long until the end of the season if he's up for it. It would be 100% better than we got now.
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Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:50 pm  
St pete wrote:
I'd get Sean long until the end of the season if he's up for it. It would be 100% better than we got now.


I'm sure he'd love a last hurrah in the redvee and he couldnt possibly be worse than Wello or Howarth
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